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bbkenn
10-02-2011, 05:18 PM
Patrick's new FS programs just gave me chills even though it wasn't his best jumpwise. His falls didn't bother me at all. He gets up so quickly and goes right back to the program. His 4-3, steps, and spins were amazing as usual. Aranjues is kind of overused music but after seeing it, I could understand why he and Lori has chosen it. It's the kind of music that brings out his emotions and complements the great qualities he has. If the five components means presentation, interpretation, skating skills, choreo, and skating skills, I'd say it was all there. Patrick was in his own league. I even saw some improvements from the last season. Such an amazing guy:)

Glad to read from someone who actually saw the program. Thanks. Looking forward to seeing it myself.

ice9
10-02-2011, 05:33 PM
Even Ando with her nightmarish meltdown skate very nearly matched Czisny in PCS . . . that should DEFINITELY tell you something too.

Well, Alissa is a beautiful skater and Valse Triste is a beautiful piece of music, but the program was a total snoozefest... :shuffle:

babayaga
10-02-2011, 05:48 PM
Having watched the whole event, I think Patrick won fair and square. No one else did better in the competition. Simple as that.

I trust midori's judgment on this, since she saw everyone live and most of us didn't even see any videos. But I have to say I am upset that Kozuka lost 10 points to Chan on PCS. Was he that much worse?

Primorskaya
10-02-2011, 05:51 PM
Is that a trick question? I wasn't there and as far as I know it's not on YT yet, I've only watched Takahashi so far. I did go through the protocols with a fine-tooth comb however, and it does look...questionable. Not referring to Japan Open only, the points margin between him and the other guys is excessive IMO.

If you were implying one should actually see a performance before passing judgement, I agree. A great skate adds up to more than the sum of its parts and we should not behave like accountants. Punish me for I have sinned. But like someone said before on this thread, three pratfalls in the space of one performance tend to break the magic somewhat. So it does seem like deja-vu, on paper at least.

If my first comment sounded a bit harsh, I must add I don't harbour some kind of primitive hatred for the guy, but I do think there is something iffy when he gets similar marks for a wonderful effort (Worlds) and a so-so one (like...SC 2010?)

Primorskaya
10-02-2011, 06:01 PM
What did you think of his skate?

Is that a trick question? I wasn't there and I don't think it's on YT yet, only watched Takahashi so far. But I did go through the protocols with a fine-toothed comb and it seems... questionable.

If you were implying one shouldn't judge a programme according to a scoresheet without actually seeing it, I agree. A great performance adds up to more than the sum of its parts, and we should not act like accountants. Forgive me for I have sinned. But as someone mentioned earlier on, three pratfalls in the space of one programme tend to break the magic somewhat. So, on paper at least, it does seem like deja vu.

If my earlier comments sounded harsh, I would like to add that I don't harbour some kind of primitive hatred for the guy, but when he receives high marks for a great effort (Worlds) then OK, but for what seems like a so-so one, well... At least he's not leading the others by 30 points. And I will wait like a good girl till I see their performances to comment further on that.

Primorskaya
10-02-2011, 06:04 PM
Oh hell, can you tell I'm new to this forum yet? I'm not sure how I manged to post two messages in a row. Realized I hadn't quoted the message I was replying to, tried to edit and effed-up...

victoriaheidi
10-02-2011, 06:22 PM
The thing is, I'm not convinced that's true. It's hard to compare simply because very few skaters at the highest levels have the range of falls that Patrick has, but it's worth comparing.

Kanako Murakami had three falls at NHK in her LP, she scored 52 for her PCS. For her clean (no fall) LP at SA, she had 55. If we applied PCS factoring equal to the men, the comparable difference is 3.75.

Denis Ten had five falls at Skate America in his LP. His PCS was 61.92. At NHK, he had three falls. His PCS was 60.78 (that's right, he got a higher score for a more visibly flawed skated). His PCS at worlds was 69.94 (two falls).

---I apologize to Vash01, who I misattributed this to initially.

I'm willing to be if we took any skater that had a range of performances from very unclean to sparklingly error free and used the unfactored PCS, we'd come up wrong 9 times out of ten.

Ok, now you've got me curious. When I finish my work, I'm going to give this a shot.

gkelly
10-02-2011, 06:23 PM
A great skate adds up to more than the sum of its parts and we should not behave like accountants. Punish me for I have sinned. But like someone said before on this thread, three pratfalls in the space of one performance tend to break the magic somewhat.

But "magic" isn't one of the program component criteria.

Sure, that's how fans evaluate favorite performances. But that's not what the sport is about as a sport.

So the problem isn't that the officials aren't doing what they're supposed to do, rather that what they're supposed to do isn't always the same as what fans most enjoy watching.

YukiNieve
10-02-2011, 06:28 PM
Dai's Exhibition (Carnival On Ice)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvNSdSA22l8



Million thanks for whoever uploaded this.

The music is called "The Crisis."

Ohhhh this is SO BEAUTIFUL program!!!!

:rollin:

crystalice
10-02-2011, 06:35 PM
My recommendation is to watch before giving any sarcasms :P
I did. I was there.:shuffle:

Zemgirl
10-02-2011, 06:45 PM
I was just hoping (useless I guess) we'd get beyond the characterization of Chan being given wins we think he did not earn when we are not judges. I don't always agree with judges scores, but starting with the "he didn't deserve his marks" meme before the season even begins just gets tiresome.
We're not treating JO as part of the season? I mean, it's not a serious event, but it is on the ISU calendar and everything...

Personally, like I wrote, I don't mind Patrick Chan scoring well when he skates well, which he has certainly done more than once - but too many times his fans have pushed the argument that he should score well even when he has a subpar skate, because his basic skills are great or because his GOEs on the good elements should make up for the mistakes. The more obnoxious among them (not you) sometimes add that people who don't appreciate this clearly only care about jumps, or prefer hip thrusts as choreo. Well, I disagree, and I care about more than just the jumps. I believe Chan is an excellent skater but his GOEs and PCS can be excessive. I think he's given credit for difficulty across the board, and sometimes it's more reputation-based than reality-based. And his IN marks are excessive; musical interpretation is by no means his forte. There, I said it. Oh, and he is in dire need of a choreographer with ideas more original than Lori Nichol's. Say, Jeffrey Buttle. Or Kurt?

That having been said, I have no problem with Gachinski getting lower PCS, I can't believe someone suggested this meant there was a fix :lol:. And I agree that mistakes on the TES side don't necessarily have to impact the PCS; it depends on the effect the mistakes have on the things PCS measures (e.g. did a skater take a while to recover from a fall? Was the flow of the program interrupted because of it? Did the interpretation suffer, was a skater less energetic, etc.?).

Is Liza's program on Youtube?

midori
10-02-2011, 06:46 PM
I trust midori's judgment on this, since she saw everyone live and most of us didn't even see any videos. But I have to say I am upset that Kozuka lost 10 points to Chan on PCS. Was he that much worse?

My favorite competitive skater is Kozuka and I have some disagreement with some of PCS differences between the two skaters in the last season, but for yesterday I have to agree with it. In this particular event Kozuka was skating much slower than his usual, with some sort of awkwardness. The elements like spins and steps were not executed well either, compared to his standard.

Probably the program was not ready for competitions yet. Besides. newspaper says Kozuka has switched to new boots only a week ago.

I am very looking forward to watching the program again in GPS. It should look very different then.

aftershocks
10-02-2011, 06:47 PM
But "magic" isn't one of the program component criteria.

Sure, that's how fans evaluate favorite performances. But that's not what the sport is about as a sport.

So the problem isn't that the officials aren't doing what they're supposed to do, rather that what they're supposed to do isn't always the same as what fans most enjoy watching.

Magic to me is indefinable, unquantifiable, unjudgeable, elusive, and clearly epitomized by Michelle Kwan in so many absolutely transcendent performances throughout her career.

Your assessment is quite neat and tied up with a pretty bow, but if that's how you view fs and how you make sense of the judging, kudos! As someone said recently, "There are lots of alternate universes in figure skating." Personally, I've gained more insight re the judging system from listening to Tim Goebel's recent interview with manleywoman.


Dai's Exhibition (Carnival On Ice) :swoon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvNSdSA22l8

Dai! :swoon: :cheer: :encore: Quite magical, indeed!



I was just hoping (useless I guess) we'd get beyond the characterization of Chan being given wins we think he did not earn when we are not judges. I don't always agree with judges scores, but starting with the "he didn't deserve his marks" meme before the season even begins just gets tiresome.


Almost as tiresome as him being consistently held up regardless of the actual performance.

Fair point, to those saying, "Wait to see the performance." But seriously folks, 3 falls and coming in first (with similar occurrences re Chan having happened early last season) will definitely and not unexpectedly have fs fans making all kinds of comments. The admonishments to give Chan a break b/c we're not judges, and the season hasn't started yet, and his skating is so spectacular, and he's mastered quads, are in stark contrast to some viewpoints toward other skaters equally skilled and talented artistically who make mistakes (albeit sometimes at more inopportune moments), and can't escape being dismissed as "head cases." If Weir had ever fallen 3 times at any point in his career, he'd have come in 15th place in an 8th place field (of course, if he didn't withdraw in shame first)! :lol: And please, don’t box my ears with, “Weir had no transitions.” With Rondo Capriccioso, TT and Weir invented modern transitions under CoP. Then there is 2-fall, silver World medalist Buttle, in 2005 -- oh, but I get it, he's another Canadian with great edges and choreo who always deserved to receive massive amounts of GOE and PCS for just showing up. (Disclaimer: I often enjoyed watching Buttle, except for that poor 3-axel, which he later miraculously mastered to win his 2008 World championship).



Gachinski's TES is higher than Chan's. But no problem. They always have PCS to fix the things. Yeah, right. Fair and square. :lol:


All the ladies involved in the Japan Open event scored higher than Tuktamisheva on the program components except Leonova. That should tell you something.


Even Ando with her nightmarish meltdown skate very nearly matched Czisny in PCS . . . that should DEFINITELY tell you something too.

Ha ha, maybe that's why the event was called "Carnival on Ice," perhaps referring more to the judges scoring as well as to some of the performances, eh? (e.g., "an amusement show ... instance of riotous excess").

Hang on, fs fans, this season's going to be a bumpy ride!!!

Ah, Zemgirl, thank you! ITA once again with your most recent post. However, I read the reference to Gachinski TES as being higher than Chan's since Chan fell 3 times, and that the "fix" was in giving Chan high PCS (as usual) to ensure he stayed ahead of G and other competitors. At this point in his career, surely no one is suggesting that Gach deserves high PCS. I think most judges are more swayed by political factors, and what can be manipulated, rather than seriously taking into account effects on the program from one or more falls, in how they mark PCS.

babayaga
10-02-2011, 07:03 PM
My favorite competitive skater is Kozuka and I have some disagreement with some of PCS differences between the two skaters in the last season, but for yesterday I have to agree with it. In this particular event Kozuka was skating much slower than his usual, with some sort of awkwardness. The elements like spins and steps were not executed well either, compared to his standard.

Probably the program was not ready for competitions yet. Besides. newspaper says Kozuka has switched to new boots only a week ago.

I am very looking forward to watching the program again in GPS. It should look very different then.

Thanks for answering, that explains it. Hope Kozuka will :kickass: this season!

gkelly
10-02-2011, 07:20 PM
Personally, like I wrote, I don't mind Patrick Chan scoring well when he skates well, which he has certainly done more than once - but too many times his fans have pushed the argument that he should score well even when he has a subpar skate, because his basic skills are great or because his GOEs on the good elements should make up for the mistakes.... And his IN marks are excessive; musical interpretation is by no means his forte.

I'm not a fan of Patrick Chan but I am in awe of his skating skills and I think if anyone in the IJS era has deserved 9+ for skating skills, transitions, and choreography, he certainly does.

I think he's better at interpretation than his anti-fans give him credit for, but I would agree that 9s there would be excessive.


Magic to me is indefinable, unquantifiable, unjudgeable, elusive, and clearly epitomized by Michelle Kwan in so many absolutely transcendent performances throughout her career.

Yes, sometimes, although I also think the emotional connection that a fan (or judge) already has with a skater before a great performance might make a subjective difference in whether or not they perceive it as magic.

Any time we're talking about magic or transcendance, we're talking about something extra special that goes beyond (transcends) the requirements of the sport. And it's wonderful when it happens -- although it doesn't always happen with the same performances for different observers, as mentioned above.

Those are the performances that earned 6.0s in the old system, or 10s in one or more components now.

Or an individual sublime element could earn +3 GOE.

And if a skater can earn +2 and +3 on a majority of elements, that will cancel out a few -3s.


And please, don’t box my ears with, “Weir had no transitions.” With Rondo Capriccioso, TT and Weir invented modern transitions under CoP.

You mean this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXtHYSAmLMg)? Nice performance, smooth connections in and out of the elements, maybe even some "magic," but I don't see anything noteworthy or groundbreaking in terms of transitions. What are you referring to?

If I had to single out one skater as having "invented" modern (IJS-era) transitions, I'd give that honor to Jeff Buttle. But I wouldn't -- it's a process that all skaters and choreographers, elite and not elite, contribute to.


Ha ha, maybe that's why the event was called "Carnival on Ice," perhaps referring more to the judges scoring as well as to some of the performances, eh? (e.g., "an amusement show ... instance of riotous excess").

Carnival = show, not competition.