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View Full Version : U.S. Figure Skating reprimands, fines Rachael Flatt



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VIETgrlTerifa
06-17-2011, 05:02 PM
Can anybody estimate what Alissa's placement would have been if she hadn't fallen on the 3z?

I remember reading in the PBP that had she landed the lutz with everything else (including the scores) being the same, she would have had the bronze.

RFOS
06-17-2011, 05:04 PM
Can anybody estimate what Alissa's placement would have been if she hadn't fallen on the 3z?

3rd overall, all else being equal. She lost 2.10 points in GOE and had a 1 point deduction for falling, so had she landed the 3Lutz adequately she would have been 3.10 points higher (not accounting for potentially slightly higher PCS), which would have put her 3rd.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2011/CAT005RS.HTM

PDilemma
06-17-2011, 05:15 PM
Knocked Flatt for skating through pain
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/jun/16/knocked-flatt-skating-through-pain/
“For U.S. Figure Skating to do that to a former national champion, that’s just a total smack in the face,” Baldwin said. “Our federation just sent a message: If you’re injured, don’t tell anybody. Keep your mouth shut. Where Rachael made a mistake was talking about it in a press conference.

“But she’s young. She’ll learn.”

Shut up, John Baldwin.

He's wrong here. He and Rena should have reported injuries as they were bound by the agreement to do. Clearly, they were able to perform and would have been allowed to do so.

The last thing needed in this situation is for him to tell everyone that lying is a good policy.

And the situation is not at all comparable to an injured player in the Super Bowl. If it becomes apparent in the middle of the game that the player cannot perform, the coach can replace him right then with another player who is standing on the sideline in uniform for that purpose. There is not another skater standing by the board in costume ready to take the ice in the middle of a free skate if the first one is unable to perform adequately.

Once again, as I've often said, I have to repeat: shut up and go away, John Baldwin :scream:

Marco
06-17-2011, 05:55 PM
Not only did Flatt hide her injury, she effectively lied by saying how ready she was for Worlds in some interviews shortly before Worlds.

Reprimand in this case probably means "you will only get whatever PCS you really deserve from now on, no more inflation or anything, so you might as well quit now".

And this situation does not compare with the Kwan situation from 2003 to 2006. At 2006, Kwan demonstrated that she would actually withdraw and let the substitute compete when she wasn't ready / was too injured. Flatt hid her injury and cost the substitutes the chance to compete two times just this season.

I have a feeling USFS dealt with Flatt first because she was the easy one. I smell a huge case against Tom Z coming.

Jenna
06-17-2011, 06:02 PM
Not only did Flatt hide her injury, she effectively lied by saying how ready she was for Worlds in some interviews shortly before Worlds.

Reprimand in this case probably means "you will only get whatever PCS you really deserve from now on, no more inflation or anything, so you might as well quit now".

And this situation does not compare with the Kwan situation from 2003 to 2006. At 2006, Kwan demonstrated that she would actually withdraw and let the substitute compete when she wasn't ready / was too injured. Flatt hid her injury and cost the substitutes the chance to compete two times just this season.

I have a feeling USFS dealt with Flatt first because she was the easy one. I smell a huge case against Tom Z coming.

I have a feeling this is going to impact her scoring big time, at least within the US. No more gifts. Regarding Tom Z, I really hope so. Seeing Josh Farris compete at Nationals after just being released from the hospital and then with an injury was very disturbing.

Aceon6
06-17-2011, 06:05 PM
And the situation is not at all comparable to an injured player in the Super Bowl. If it becomes apparent in the middle of the game that the player cannot perform, the coach can replace him right then with another player who is standing on the sideline in uniform for that purpose. There is not another skater standing by the board in costume ready to take the ice in the middle of a free skate if the first one is unable to perform adequately.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner. Rachael's and Tom's responsibility was to insure that there WAS someone in Russia with a costume and skates. Team Flatt missed big time by not disclosing. If they had, USFS could have had Mirai and Frank there. That's why she's being fined.

Sylvia
06-17-2011, 06:09 PM
Rachael's and Tom's responsibility was to insure that there WAS someone in Russia with a costume and skates. Team Flatt missed big time by not disclosing. If they had, USFS could have had Mirai and Frank there.
I don't think USFS would have sent Nagasu to Moscow on standby (Carroll was already going there to coach Denis Ten). A decision would have had to have been made beforehand whether to send Flatt or Nagasu (Flatt arrived in Moscow on Tuesday, IIRC).

leafygreens
06-17-2011, 06:14 PM
Reprimand in this case probably means "you will only get whatever PCS you really deserve from now on, no more inflation or anything, so you might as well quit now".

That's what I was thinking, and Tom Z shouldn't expect any more "Coach of the Year" noms.

Too many people have been willing to look the other way on RF's aesthetics because of her consistency. Including USFS. They wanted to gift her with USN title because they knew she could deliver. But since she won nats she's been on a downward spiral and the fed was pissed that she had been gifted one too many times and didn't deliver. Take away her consistency and RF is a very unlikeable skater, and the blasť attitude about the injury after WC really pissed off the above people. I think she's toast. It really is shocking to see this happening to the smarty-pants darling. Oh, the irony.

Cheylana
06-17-2011, 06:17 PM
Take away her consistency and RF is a very unlikeable skater, and the blasť attitude about the injury after WC really pissed off the above people. I think she's toast. It really is shocking to see this happening to the smarty-pants darling. Oh, the irony.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes: x 1 million

Sylvia
06-17-2011, 06:24 PM
... the blasť attitude about the injury after WC...
Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I have no idea how you can assume that Flatt had a "blasť attitude" based on reading a transcript of her post-FS comments.


I have a hard time thinking that no one but Rachel and her coach (in the skating community) knew about her injury at the time it was diagnosed. Surely someone had at least a tacit responsibility to pass that information along to USFSA officials.
But whoever diagnosed the injury doesn't have that right. It was privileged information among him/her, Rachael, her coach and parents.

Vagabond
06-17-2011, 06:40 PM
Not only did Flatt hide her injury, she effectively lied by saying how ready she was for Worlds in some interviews shortly before Worlds.

I'd forgotten about that.

http://worldskating.blogspot.com/2011/04/rachael-flatt-i-am-in-great-spot.html


As all of us know, there was a delay with Worlds. Has it somehow affected your preparation?

R. Flatt: It was a difficult situation, but it was definitely a learning experience in flexibility. I ended up breaking in new skates to force a low in my training, but I am in a great spot mentally and physically right now.

:shuffle:

5Ali3
06-17-2011, 06:43 PM
Some general comments:
- There has been no official announcement (AFAIK) by U.S. Figure Skating of Rachel's fine. Icenetwork has this strange relationship with USFS; the official position is that their content is not controlled by USFS, which I believe. Notice that USFS links to IN for "starting orders and results," but if you click on those links at IN, starting orders and official protocols are actually hosted by the usfigureskating.org server, while videos and news are hosted by IN.

- Clearly, Phil Hersh is not owned by USFS. ;) Personally, I think that it was extremely unprofessional and unethical for someone at USFS to notify Hersh, but as I've mentioned before (http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3187772&postcount=250), PR is not the association's strong point. On one hand, I can't comprehend how the organization repeatedly manages to put a synchro team's worth of foot, skate, and lower leg into its mouth, but on the other hand... well, figure skating requires a lot of flexibility. :scream:

- No statement has been released stating either that Tom has been punished or that he has not been punished, and I think that it's too early to make an assumption: let's not put the triple Axel before the waltz jump. Based on the information presented in this thread, it's possible that both the PSA and USFS would have grievance cases pending, and I have no idea how those efforts would coordinate/clash - I have a feeling that it wouldn't be a streamlined process.

- USFS used to publish the results of Grievances in Skating if they resulted in a ban, but I believe this is no longer done. (For qualifying competitions, the chief referees have access to a list of banned individuals.) There may never be a public statement by USFS regarding the results of this situation.

- Frank Carroll is one of the last old skool coaches who believes that There Is a Way You Behave and a Way You Do Not Behave, and he's not very flexible about them. There is a way to train, and a way to behave in public, and a way to dress appropriately, and a way to treat other people with respect. He doesn't yell (often), but his calm way of making you know he's disappointed in you is somehow worse. He can get pretty worked up, though, when someone behaves in A Way You Do Not Behave. I once spent 15 minutes listening to a soliloquy on the off-ice clothing worn by skaters at Nationals; he spoke only in generalities, not about any particular skater, but he was Not Pleased at the amount of cleavage and underwear on display.

- One of the funniest responses to "How are you?" that I've received was from a skater of Frank's who was third alternate to one of the post-Nationals competitions. After ranting about how tired the skater was of their music, their costume, their boots, and just about everything else, the skater concluded by wailing, "HE'S MAKING ME DO DOUBLE RUN-THROUGHS EVERY DAY!" I believe Frank's comments that Mirai was ready to skate, although I believe that's not the issue here. Rachel's withholding of information about the extent of her injuries has nothing to do with whether Mirai was ready to skate or not.


With Rachel skating right there in Colorado, I'm thinking someone should have known. Surely there are judges and officials that are regularly at that rink and have frequent conversations with Rachel and the other skaters. I have a hard time thinking that no one but Rachel and her coach (in the skating community) knew about her injury at the time it was diagnosed. Surely someone had at least a tacit responsibility to pass that information along to USFSA officials.

- There aren't that many judges in Colorado Springs; there are a lot of paid staffers, but a paid staffer is not allowed to be an official.
- I don't understand the assumption that there are judges and officials regularly at the rink; most people have day jobs that, you know, pay for the opportunity to volunteer (most people lose money judging). Also, who over the age of 16 wants to hang around a rink when they don't have to?
- Sometimes I read complaints that skaters/coaches/officials are too close, and other times I read complaints that indicate they're not close enough: it can't be both.
- There's no official policy on passing along gossip, although Joe Mero was punished for not calling USFS when he found out that his wife was having an affair with a student.
- Obviously, I can't state conclusively that "no one" who is a USFS member knew of the injury before Rachel mentioned it in the Mixed Zone, but I haven't heard anyone say that they knew - but I've heard a lot of people say that they didn't.


You'd be surprised how many extremely smart people have supremely poor judgment.

There are days when I suspect that anyone involved in figure skating has supremely poor judgment. If you don't believe me, take a look at the MRI of my spine and my annual household budget. :slinkaway

IceAlisa
06-17-2011, 06:43 PM
I'd forgotten about that.

http://worldskating.blogspot.com/2011/04/rachael-flatt-i-am-in-great-spot.html



:shuffle:
Wow. I don't recall seeing this before. I am sure this is not the first nor the last time a skater will put on a cheerful face over a nagging injury but once again, this injury was too serious.

wildfire
06-17-2011, 06:44 PM
I find this whole situation very disturbing. USFS is making RF the scape goat here. She goes to the OTC everyday and recieves treatment for her injury prior to leaving for Worlds. She continues to receive treatment from the US medical team at Worlds, and USFS is acting like they were left in the dark. USFS knew what RF was dealing with. If there wasn't some formal paper work that wasn't filed, it's simply semantics.

IceAlisa
06-17-2011, 06:47 PM
USFS knew what RF was dealing with.

They did? How do you know?