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rjblue
06-09-2011, 12:15 AM
Just as in terms of stereotypical gender behavior, the deep seated fear of boys playing with "girls" toys demonstrates. It is that which is considered female --whether it is the nonnegotiable physical traits or those activities and interests that society has classified as feminine--that is deemed objectionable for males or for everyone.
Well, that seems to be a mostly modern societal attribute. The much more typical pattern is to severely repress, or even make illegal, females from anything other than strictly female behavior. People were very afraid that their daughter be anything but feminine. It's only recently that being a tomboy was almost a bragging characteristic.

When my daughter attended a week-long summer camp at a historical village, the girls were forbidden to run, or whistle, or raise their voices, play physical games. They had to behave as typical girls in 1850.

And now, in practice, most people's actions that are gender neutral for their children are actually just discouraging girls from acting on traditional roles. Being girly is bad, no matter what your anatomy is.

Louis
06-09-2011, 12:53 AM
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danceronice
06-09-2011, 01:30 AM
And now, in practice, most people's actions that are gender neutral for their children are actually just discouraging girls from acting on traditional roles. Being girly is bad, no matter what your anatomy is.

Yes, and what message does that send to girls who *gasp* WANT to be girly? Heck, what does it say that boys who show an interest in "girly" toys are discouraged from playing with them, while girls who play with "boy" toys are told that's good and girl toys are bad?

Then just to make it more fun, girls hit pre-teen/teen age and are promptly hit with the message that no, you shouldn't have been playing with Barbie--but now you need to DRESS like a tart. (And by the time you hit your twenties, the culture says you better be taking Cosmo's advice seriously and acting like one, too, or you're a closet case who liked playing with toy trucks instead of Barbie, what was WRONG with you...that, or you WANT sex? You're either a whore or you're a mindless tool of the patriarchy, why do you care about pleasing some male?)

Basically, girls can't win, no matter who's running the show.

LilJen
06-09-2011, 01:54 AM
And here I was thinking the "William Has a Doll" track on Free to Be You and Me--an album that was HUGELY popular in the US in the 1970s--had taken care of a lot of that "'feminine' boy = bad" crapola.

judiz
06-09-2011, 02:04 AM
I teach Pre-K and the boys in my class love to go into the Pretend area and play house. They play with the dolls, pretend to discipline them and dress them and they dress up in dress up clothing, including dresses. At first we had some parents make remarks and give strange looks but now they accepted it for what it is, imaginative play and a way for a child to express what is happening in their world.

judiz
06-09-2011, 02:06 AM
And here I was thinking the "William Has a Doll" track on Free to Be You and Me--an album that was HUGELY popular in the US in the 1970s--had taken care of a lot of that "'feminine' boy = bad" crapola.


I loved that track and it's so true what it says at the end that William has a doll but one day he will be a father too and needs to know how to dress his baby and love his baby and take care of his baby.

milanessa
06-09-2011, 03:44 AM
Anderson Cooper's doing this in 3 parts. Here is part 1 from last night. Scroll down the page to see the video.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/

Japanfan
06-09-2011, 07:50 AM
Yes, and what message does that send to girls who *gasp* WANT to be girly? Heck, what does it say that boys who show an interest in "girly" toys are discouraged from playing with them, while girls who play with "boy" toys are told that's good and girl toys are bad?

Then just to make it more fun, girls hit pre-teen/teen age and are promptly hit with the message that no, you shouldn't have been playing with Barbie--but now you need to DRESS like a tart. (And by the time you hit your twenties, the culture says you better be taking Cosmo's advice seriously and acting like one, too, or you're a closet case who liked playing with toy trucks instead of Barbie, what was WRONG with you...that, or you WANT sex? You're either a whore or you're a mindless tool of the patriarchy, why do you care about pleasing some male?)

Basically, girls can't win, no matter who's running the show.

For sure the stacks are still loaded against us. But, parenting can support or ease girl's development of a strong and authentic identity. There's nothing wrong with being a girly girl - it doesn't make you less of a person - but it needs to be an authentic rather than imposed identity.

I had an unpleasant reminder of gendering recently when my pregnant niece told me she was happy to be having a boy rather than a girl because she and her sister (her one sibling) had grown up in a girl's world and boy's world was so different. The implication was that boy's world was somehow better, which was a strange view coming from a young woman who has PhD in education, a great career and a wonderful husband. I would have hoped she was more enlightened, but then my sister's gender views have obviously influenced her.

Ultimately boys and girls live in the same world. It is up to us whether we want to divide it along lines of gender, especially when we are parents to the young.

Ozzisk8tr
06-09-2011, 09:48 AM
Well, that seems to be a mostly modern societal attribute. The much more typical pattern is to severely repress, or even make illegal, females from anything other than strictly female behavior. People were very afraid that their daughter be anything but feminine. It's only recently that being a tomboy was almost a bragging characteristic.

When my daughter attended a week-long summer camp at a historical village, the girls were forbidden to run, or whistle, or raise their voices, play physical games. They had to behave as typical girls in 1850.

And now, in practice, most people's actions that are gender neutral for their children are actually just discouraging girls from acting on traditional roles. Being girly is bad, no matter what your anatomy is.

:eek: Someone should have told this to Laura Ingles. Little House on the Prairie often showed her running down hills and falling over, poor clumsy thing.

Satellitegirl
06-09-2011, 01:49 PM
I never understood the whole "you must act this way if you area girl, and this way if you are a boy." Ok so what if you exhibit a different phenotype, than your genotype? What if you're XX but developed masculine (Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia) or XY but developed as a girl(Androgen Insensitivity)? I wonder what these people who try to make someone act a certain way, would do if presented with that situation.

antmanb
06-09-2011, 02:44 PM
You don't want a restaurant server's sex to be visible to me or anyone else with your false equivalency that observing masculine or feminine traits that emerge physically after puberty is somehow a perverted interest in another person's sexual organs. How do we accomplish that other than hiding the post pubescent physical attributes of biological sex?


I don't know how you even began to get that from PeterG's post at all :confused:



Just as in terms of stereotypical gender behavior, the deep seated fear of boys playing with "girls" toys demonstrates. It is that which is considered female --whether it is the nonnegotiable physical traits or those activities and interests that society has classified as feminine--that is deemed objectionable for males or for everyone.

But others upthread have pointed out the example of Shiloh Jolie-Pitt where a girl dressing in boys clothes and being criticised for being a "tomboy" suggests that it isn't just about male children being effeminate and female being bad, it's simply about adults being affronted by children not conforming to their biological gender stereotypes, a judgment they would not be able to make if they do not know what sex the child is.

danceronice
06-09-2011, 02:51 PM
:eek: Someone should have told this to Laura Ingles. Little House on the Prairie often showed her running down hills and falling over, poor clumsy thing.

Uh, they didn't have blow-dried mullets in the 1870s, either. (The TV show is...less than period-accurrate.)

But a better idea of 'typical girl activities', or at least those encouraged, would be to get a books of children's activities aimed at girls or boys--I have a reprint of one from the later nineteenth century. Girl activities are generally less physical and more...I don't want to say creative, but things like organized plays or puppet shows, word games, going on 'nature walks' with the intent of learning to identify and press/preserve flowers and plants, while the boys tend to be directed more to things like building and physicaly compeititive games. And both books have things we'd flip out over now--for example a fun party game for girls involving LEAD DIVINATION--yes, exactly what it says on the tin, little girls using molten lead poured into cold water as a method of fortune telling at parties for ten-year-olds. You know, for kids! And boys are supposed to go out and trap animals, and both genders are expected to do things like collect bird eggs and other natural specimens we know now to leave alone. Girls' physical games tended to emphasize gracefulness and eye-hand coordination, boys of a comparable age were usually aimed at target-oriented or speed/strength games (which makes sense to a point as they're behind girls as far as fine motor skills go. And by the time they reached ages we would consider normal for more organized skill sports, they usually had real work to do.)

milanessa
06-09-2011, 04:45 PM
Part 2 from Anderson Cooper. They catch up with Dr. Reker on this one.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/

PeterG
06-09-2011, 05:14 PM
Ultimately boys and girls live in the same world. It is up to us whether we want to divide it along lines of gender, especially when we are parents to the young.

:respec:


But others upthread have pointed out the example of Shiloh Jolie-Pitt where a girl dressing in boys clothes and being criticised for being a "tomboy" suggests that it isn't just about male children being effeminate and female being bad, it's simply about adults being affronted by children not conforming to their biological gender stereotypes, a judgment they would not be able to make if they do not know what sex the child is.

Interesting how her parents are so androgynous... ;)

skatesindreams
06-09-2011, 05:31 PM
Part 2 from Anderson Cooper. They catch up with Dr. Reker on this one.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/


It's a shame that Kirk Murphy seemingly didn't get the "unconditional" love that his sister talks about in the last minute of the interview; and was put into this experiment by his parents.
Whatever their "good intentions" were; they must accept their share of the responsibility for what happened to their son.