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Satellitegirl
06-08-2011, 02:04 PM
I'm glad that there are more and more people speaking up and telling kids to be themselves, and it gets better as you get older(like in the youtube campaign going on). I hope more of these stories will be prevented :(.

aliceanne
06-08-2011, 02:35 PM
Behaviorist therapy was a big deal in the 70's (B.F. Skinner, Pavlov's dogs, Brave New World). You were supposed to cure the perceived dysfunctional behavior through a system of rewards and punishments. The focus was on changing the behavior, not trying to analyze what caused it.

This seems extreme even for the 70's though. Brothers and sisters frequently play with each others toys when they are young. It's a time to use your imagination and experiment. My parents were pretty traditional and they didn't stress over it.

PDilemma
06-08-2011, 02:41 PM
Trying to raise a "genderless" child simply means that you don't impose beliefs, values and myths about gender on your child. It's not damaging, it's liberating, because it gives children the freedom to be who they really are and a better chance to become well-rounded people. Girls can play with trucks if they like and boys can play with dolls. You can play ball with your daughters and your sons, and make cookies with your daughters and your sons. Good skills are learned in the process for both.



You don't have to hide a child's biological sex from the world to do that. I spent every summer playing ball with my dad, while my brother preferred not to. I spent hours sorting baseball cards and going to card shows with my dad--something else my brother was not interested in. My brother and I both spent enough time in the kitchen with mom to learn to cook and are both great cooks. My brother's great disappointment when his baby sister got old enough to play was the discovery that I would indeed play with his toys--including trucks and G.I. Joe. My nephew is 16 now and one of his favorite things is to bake cookies with me in the summer because he's been doing it since he was four and a half.

Yet everyone always knew I was a girl and my brother and nephew were boys. It's the whole hiding of the child's biological sex that is potentially damaging. Children can be raised in a perfectly healthy and natural way to do anything they want regardless of gender stereotypes without the publicity stunt that family is pulling.

danceronice
06-08-2011, 03:09 PM
Trying to raise a "genderless" child simply means that you don't impose beliefs, values and myths about gender on your child. It's not damaging, it's liberating, because it gives children the freedom to be who they really are and a better chance to become well-rounded people. Girls can play with trucks if they like and boys can play with dolls. You can play ball with your daughters and your sons, and make cookies with your daughters and your sons. Good skills are learned in the process for both.
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They're refusing to tell people the child's SEX. Sex is a biological fact, no matter what the brain believes or even what body parts you chop off or sew on or what clothes you wear. Let the kids play with whatever toys they want (I'm a heterosexual female and I played with toy guns and action figures) but don't avoid telling them or anyone else if they're male or female. That is going leave them screwed up and hopelessly confused.

PDilemma
06-08-2011, 03:13 PM
They're refusing to tell people the child's SEX. Sex is a biological fact, no matter what the brain believes or even what body parts you chop off or sew on or what clothes you wear. Let the kids play with whatever toys they want (I'm a heterosexual female and I played with toy guns and action figures) but don't avoid telling them or anyone else if they're male or female. That is going leave them screwed up and hopelessly confused.

If that child is female, what message is she being sent by being told that her femaleness is something that must be hidden? Particularly as her brothers' sex was not hidden.

danceronice
06-08-2011, 03:15 PM
If that child is female, what message is she being sent by being told that her femaleness is something that must be hidden? Particularly as her brothers' sex was not hidden.

Girls are victims and chosing to play in a femnine way if you're biologically female is something to be ashamed of?

figurefan
06-08-2011, 03:25 PM
Bad enough that Reker was promoting this twisted "therapy", but even worse that he was a hypocrite on top of this. I didn't realize until I read to the end of the story that he was the anti-gay crusader who claimed that his rentboy was only hired to carry his vacation luggage.

My late mother used to say that those that preach the hardest against something have either done it, are doing it or want to do it.

What a horrible story...his brother and sister seem to be just as traumatized as he was...

I blame the parents as well as the therapist. My parents raised kids during the same time period and would have never participated in this type of "therapy". We were spanked (not beaten) as kids because we did something wrong like lie, cheat or other types of bad behavior that deserved punishment.

There is no sense in this genderless garbage either. Just let the kids develop their own likes, dislikes and interests. Sometimes my brother played Barbies with me and I played army men with him...we both turned out OK.

Ziggy
06-08-2011, 03:28 PM
This kind of therapy can often result in various forms of neurosis developing, alongside many others negative psychological consequences.

That's what happens when therapy isn't regulated properly. I just can't understand why psychologists aren't regulated properly like doctors. Clearly, self-regulation has proven to be insufficient.

In many countries, "therapists" using those methods can practice with impunity.

Germany is the only country I am aware of (there are more, I'm sure - or at least hope) where the regulations are suitably strict and such person wouldn't be allowed to practice legally.


If that child is female, what message is she being sent by being told that her femaleness is something that must be hidden? Particularly as her brothers' sex was not hidden.

You do realise that what is considered "female behaviour" is cultural and socialised, right?

I do find it hilarious how terrified not knowing somebody's biological sex (what kind of biological sex though?) makes people. F****** gender binary. Blergh.

Civic
06-08-2011, 03:30 PM
Several posters have blamed Kirk Murphy's mother for allowing her son to be abused in this manner. What about his father? What man beats his child hard enough to raise welts on his body just because some psychologist says so? And not to make any excuses for George Rekers, but did he realize at the time how severely Kirk's father was beating him for racking up red chips?

Kirk's elder brother, Mark, describes a tense, fearful atmosphere in their home during this time. He dreaded seeing the chip count when he came home to school because he knew red chips meant his brother was going to get another beating. To his credit, he tried to protect his little brother, but he was just a child himself.

PDilemma
06-08-2011, 03:36 PM
You do realise that what is considered "female behaviour" is cultural and socialised, right?



The child in question is not being told that his/her behavior is wrong or right, but that it is necessary to hide his/her biological sex. A vagina is not something that is cultural or socialized. It's something the half of the population born female just has. If that child is female, she is receiving the message that having female body parts is something that must be hidden from the outside world whereas her brothers, who have penises (again, not something socialized or cultural, people born male just have them), do not have to hide that.

That's not healthy.

Satellitegirl
06-08-2011, 03:53 PM
I agree with those who said that the child should know their sex...but should be allowed to play and dress however they want. Shiloh(Brad and Angelina's little girl) is a good example of letting the child express themselves how they want.

milanessa
06-08-2011, 03:57 PM
Anderson Cooper's show tonight (10pm EST) is about this.

AYS
06-08-2011, 04:23 PM
Several posters have blamed Kirk Murphy's mother for allowing her son to be abused in this manner. What about his father? What man beats his child hard enough to raise welts on his body just because some psychologist says so? And not to make any excuses for George Rekers, but did he realize at the time how severely Kirk's father was beating him for racking up red chips?
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I think people singled out the mother in their comments only because she is quoted extensively in the article in a way that leads you to believe she considers herself blameless and is 100% blaming Rekers. (And the dad isn't quoted at all in the article). Eg:

I blame them for the way his life turned out," she said. "If one person causes another person's death, I don't care if it's 20 or 50 years later, it's the same as murder in my eyes.
Not that folks think she is more blameworthy than the dad. Both of them are guilty in this, IMO, because you have to be an absolute moron to not realize there was something seriously wrong in what they were doing, on a number of levels, whether an expert was telling you to do it or not.

Horrible. :(

skatesindreams
06-08-2011, 04:24 PM
How dreadful and tragic.
The parents are as much to blame as the "Doctor" for condoning and participating in this "therapy" --- never mind their responsibility for their own attitudes and actions.

I hope that this report helps to end this sort of "behavior modification"/sexual identity alternation "therapy" forever.

Rex
06-08-2011, 04:55 PM
Well, I hope the mother and father can sleep at night....I would not be able to.