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Andrushka
06-01-2011, 09:07 PM
But what exactly IS "healthy" eating?

Healthy eating is not eating vegetables and fruits that are so overly processed that they loose the nutritional value that our bodies need to function in a healthy way.Healthy eating is eating the things that provide the nutrion that we need to sustain life with minimal self inflicted health problems. Healthy eating is eating a reasonable portion size not a super size portion size and stopping when we are full instead of being gluttons. Healthy eating is not considering a french fry to be a vegetable.Most french fries have little to no nutritional value,whereas if you make your own, with skins and all you are still getting some nutrition from the potato..which is not a evil vegetable by any means. Healthy eating is knowing where your food came from.I want my kids to know what grows in the ground and above the ground,to know the difference between asparagus and broccoli in their natural form.

People do need to eat more vegetables and fruits,but they need to eat them in a more healthy way.Fresh or frozen steamed veg is better for you than fried,boiled in gobs of butter etc... Or these people who boil their green beans or peas till they are a grayish color..they are meant to be green! and have flavor! And fruits...instead of eating something drenched in syrup why not just eat it fresh?

I watch the Food Revolution and I follow him on twitter and fb.This topic is something that is very important to me because I've seen what happens when families/groups of people eat too much crap.On my tribes reservation diabetes and heart disease is rampant.It frustates me because our people were a farming tribe,who ate mostly vegetables and lean meats and now,you rarely see a vegetable at a meal other than corn.If you take a look at a meal put together for the masses it's no wonder...I want different for myself and my kids. I am the mean mommy who passes the chip aisle 80% of the time and who hands my kids a banana or a peach instead of a cookie.I discovered if we grow our own veg,my kids will eat it...so I grew my own carrots,lettuce,peas,onions and leeks this year...my 3 yr old walks around the garden munching on a carrot he just pulled up.(and wiped the dirt off) or a handful of lettuce. I consider it a victory,a small one but a step towards his having healthy eating habits as an adult.I want my boys to be strong and healthy and to have a mommy is who is too.

Prancer
06-01-2011, 09:39 PM
true,but it does compromise ones immune system.And give your body a temporary rush of energy that then crashes leaving the person drained.

Again, I have seen these claims made--and refuted. There is no consensus on this subject, just as there is no consensus on what "healthy" eating is, aside from the general maxim that one should practice moderation in all things. Nutrition is a very poorly understood subject even among people who study nutrition.

overedge
06-01-2011, 09:47 PM
I have a freezer with about double capacity of the freezer in a standard fridge. Takes up very little space, cost me $150, and has more than paid for itself in the opportunity to take advantage of sales on frozen fruit and breads.

IMO whether or not people can "afford" things is almost always more about priorities than actual cash flow.

Respectfully, I disagree. I'm not going to comment on the spending priorities issue, but to be in the situation you're describing requires:
- $150 on hand to buy the freezer (and presumably some choices of freezer in making the purchase, not just one store with one choice)
- a reliable power supply to make having the freezer worthwhile
- access to a store that sells frozen fruit and/or bread at affordable prices, or the ability/opportunity to travel to a store like that

A lot of people in low income neighbourhoods are lacking at least one of these things.

skatingfan5
06-01-2011, 09:52 PM
But what exactly IS "healthy" eating?There are a lot of different ideas about what constitutes "healthy" eating, but for me "healthier" eating involves food that has fewer additives (artificial coloring and/or flavoring), less processing and/or refining (i.e. whole grains vs. "enriched"), lower levels of salt and sugar, saturated fats, etc., and more fresh/local produce in season. For me "organic" doesn't necessarily mean "healthy" -- after all there are all sorts of organic food products, including chips and "Cheetos". But this is just my idea of "healthier" eating.

As for flavored milk (chocolate and the pink stuff) :scream:. One cup of chocolate-flavored milk has half again as many calories as whole milk (226 vs, 150) and nearly triple the carbohydrates (32 g vs. 12; 8 oz. of Coca-Cola has 27 g). I know the argument is that it's better for children to be drinking sugar-saturated milk than none at all, because they will be getting protein and calcium, but it seems a high price to pay. :(

Andrushka
06-01-2011, 10:12 PM
I know the argument is that it's better for children to be drinking sugar-saturated milk than none at all, because they will be getting protein and calcium, but it seems a high price to pay. :(

I think that goes back to what they are conditioned to accept and not accept.If they had been drinking plain milk or milk with very little sugar in it all along,then they would be used to that.If all they've ever been given is high sugar flavored milk,yeah they probably won't like the taste of regular.


Again, I have seen these claims made--and refuted. There is no consensus on this subject, just as there is no consensus on what "healthy" eating is, aside from the general maxim that one should practice moderation in all things. Nutrition is a very poorly understood subject even among people who study nutrition.

I am sorry but I disagree...the concept of eating healthy isn't rocket science or in deep need of scientific research.fruits,veggies and smaller portions...easy.

Jenny
06-01-2011, 10:46 PM
Again, I have seen these claims made--and refuted. There is no consensus on this subject, just as there is no consensus on what "healthy" eating is, aside from the general maxim that one should practice moderation in all things. Nutrition is a very poorly understood subject even among people who study nutrition.

I agree to a point. Pollan points out that back in the 1800s, people discovered that foods were divided into fats, proteins and carbohydrates, and we thought we knew everything; then in the early 20th century, we discovered vitamins and thought we knew everything. There was a time when people thought the world was flat too, so the idea that we know everything today makes little sense to me.

However, there are a lot of things for which there is consensus - such as plant-based foods being generally good;l calories in/calories out being the most widely applicable cause of weight gain/loss; overly processed foods offering no nutritional value and likely many negative effect on health etc.

At the same time, in Andrushka's response, much of which I agree with, she references lean meats and implies butter is bad. Of course there is a decades-old theory that this is true, and many learned people continue to subscribe to the idea. At the same time, there is a wide body of research and thinking that says there's nothing wrong with animal fat, and in fact it's beneficial in many ways. That's one of the major topics on which experts and research disagree, and a good example of what Prancer is talking about.


Respectfully, I disagree. I'm not going to comment on the spending priorities issue, but to be in the situation you're describing requires:
- $150 on hand to buy the freezer (and presumably some choices of freezer in making the purchase, not just one store with one choice)
- a reliable power supply to make having the freezer worthwhile
- access to a store that sells frozen fruit and/or bread at affordable prices, or the ability/opportunity to travel to a store like that

A lot of people in low income neighbourhoods are lacking at least one of these things.

Obviously I can't back this up with stats, but I can tell you that I bought my freezer at one of dozens (maybe more) of appliance shops in my city. As I recall it was on a bus route so easy to get to, although I think we did pay a delivery charge, plus sales tax is rather significant here comparable to other jurisdictions. Reliable power supply? I didn't realize that was a significant issue in urban centres, where I understand most lower income people live. Sure if you can't pay the electric bill it's an issue, but how many people are living without any electricity for extended periods? Access to a store selling frozen fruit and bread on sale? I can walk to perhaps half a dozen such stores within 20 minutes, which I think would be the case for most people in my fairly typical city.

Yes, an upfront investment is required, but it is possible to put aside a few dollars or to put such a purchase on credit, and many appliance stores offer their own "pay later" terms. As I said, roughly calculating, I think my freezer has paid for itself in savings in the 8 months or so we've had it, and I made a point of checking my electric bill after we got it, and there was no change.

I'm not saying everybody should make such a choice, but to say people can't "afford" it is IMO nearly always about choice, rather than availability of money.

ETA - Just want to say again, I'm not saying everyone can do this or should do this. Someone suggested that there was a way to take advantage of seasonal produce, so I added my two cents in saying there is a fairly cost effective way to do it. I also do believe there are people who truly can't afford such an investment, but I'm also surmising that it's a very small percentage, and that most people, if they wanted to do this, could.

Andrushka
06-01-2011, 11:30 PM
I agree to a point. Pollan points out that back in the 1800s, people discovered that foods were divided into fats, proteins and carbohydrates, and we thought we knew everything; then in the early 20th century, we discovered vitamins and thought we knew everything. There was a time when people thought the world was flat too, so the idea that we know everything today makes little sense to me.

However, there are a lot of things for which there is consensus - such as plant-based foods being generally good;l calories in/calories out being the most widely applicable cause of weight gain/loss; overly processed foods offering no nutritional value and likely many negative effect on health etc.

At the same time, in Andrushka's response, much of which I agree with, she references lean meats and implies butter is bad. Of course there is a decades-old theory that this is true, and many learned people continue to subscribe to the idea. At the same time, there is a wide body of research and thinking that says there's nothing wrong with animal fat, and in fact it's beneficial in many ways. That's one of the major topics on which experts and research disagree, and a good example of what Prancer is talking about.



Obviously I can't back this up with stats, but I can tell you that I bought my freezer at one of dozens (maybe more) of appliance shops in my city. As I recall it was on a bus route so easy to get to, although I think we did pay a delivery charge, plus sales tax is rather significant here comparable to other jurisdictions. Reliable power supply? I didn't realize that was a significant issue in urban centres, where I understand most lower income people live. Sure if you can't pay the electric bill it's an issue, but how many people are living without any electricity for extended periods? Access to a store selling frozen fruit and bread on sale? I can walk to perhaps half a dozen such stores within 20 minutes, which I think would be the case for most people in my fairly typical city.

Yes, an upfront investment is required, but it is possible to put aside a few dollars or to put such a purchase on credit, and many appliance stores offer their own "pay later" terms. As I said, roughly calculating, I think my freezer has paid for itself in savings in the 8 months or so we've had it, and I made a point of checking my electric bill after we got it, and there was no change.

I'm not saying everybody should make such a choice, but to say people can't "afford" it is IMO nearly always about choice, rather than availability of money.

ETA - Just want to say again, I'm not saying everyone can do this or should do this. Someone suggested that there was a way to take advantage of seasonal produce, so I added my two cents in saying there is a fairly cost effective way to do it. I also do believe there are people who truly can't afford such an investment, but I'm also surmising that it's a very small percentage, and that most people, if they wanted to do this, could.

I actually made no reference to lean protein nor did I say that butter was bad.I said "gobs" of butter...actually making a point that gobs of it isn't good for you...and that's true. I am well aware of the importance of fat in ones diet.When reading about the Native American diet prior to eating a more European diet...they ate fats with their proteins.It was an important part of their diet because without fat you don't get complete energy.So when they killed an animal to eat,they ate the fat as well.(and used it in other ways as well) I am not against fats,I am against frying 90-100% of ones meals.

as to what we do and do not know.We have always known that we should eat vegetables whether the nutritional value is debated upon or not.(there have been times when some were deemed poison until someone ate it and didn't kill over)




As to a low income person acquiring a deep freeze etc...

overedge
06-02-2011, 05:43 AM
Obviously I can't back this up with stats, but I can tell you that I bought my freezer at one of dozens (maybe more) of appliance shops in my city. As I recall it was on a bus route so easy to get to, although I think we did pay a delivery charge, plus sales tax is rather significant here comparable to other jurisdictions. Reliable power supply? I didn't realize that was a significant issue in urban centres, where I understand most lower income people live. Sure if you can't pay the electric bill it's an issue, but how many people are living without any electricity for extended periods? Access to a store selling frozen fruit and bread on sale? I can walk to perhaps half a dozen such stores within 20 minutes, which I think would be the case for most people in my fairly typical city.


I've been in neighbourhoods in major US cities where, if there were stores or restaurants at all, they were fast food joints or convenience stores. And depending on what was going on in the neighbourhood, people might not feel safe standing at a bus stop to go somewhere else (assuming that there is even reliable public transit), or walking much further to get to any other kind of store. This website has a good description of these kinds of problems:
http://www.fooddesert.net/

And as for power, in those same neighbourhoods there is a power supply, but it's not reliable. It might go on and off during the day because of overloads to the system (especially during the summer) or because the individual building isn't properly wired. And that won't do much to keep food consistently cold or frozen.

I'm not denying that these might not be problems for everyone in an urban setting, but I think there are hidden, or not so hidden, constraints to eating well that don't get acknowledged.

Prancer
06-02-2011, 11:56 AM
However, there are a lot of things for which there is consensus - such as plant-based foods being generally good;l calories in/calories out being the most widely applicable cause of weight gain/loss; overly processed foods offering no nutritional value and likely many negative effect on health etc.

I would agree that there is a consensus that plant-based foods are generally good and that overly processed foods generally are not.

But I would have to disagree that there is a consensus that calories in-calories out is the most widely applicable cause of weight loss/gain. I would say it is more a matter of there being a consensus that calories in/calories out makes the most immediate difference in weight loss/gain.

I'm not sure that I agree that there is a consensus that overly processed foods have been shown to have negative effects on health, either. Certainly most overly processed food is usually lacking in nutrients and so a diet that is high in processed foods is going to be low in nutrition value. But whether there are negative effects from the food alone is another issue.


I am sorry but I disagree...the concept of eating healthy isn't rocket science or in deep need of scientific research.fruits,veggies and smaller portions...easy.

Okay. I'm high risk for breast cancer. Is soy good for me or should I avoid it?

At the moment, I am anemic. Is your advice still fruits, veggies and smaller portions (smaller than what)?

When I was a kid, I suffered a serious dental injury that required multiple surgeries. My parents were advised by the dentist that when I was preparing for and recovering from surgery, I should eat foods that would help me heal--protein, iron, zinc and vitamin c. I have always followed this advice and have always healed exceptionally well. I am healing from something right now, and I am healing exceptionally well again. The doctor treating me told me that he wishes he could clone my tissue, so I said "Protein, iron, zinc, vitamin C." He rolled his eyes at me and said I should be thankful for my genes, not my diet.

Diet? Genetics? Both? Neither?

Since I am actively trying to eat foods high in iron, protein and zinc, I am eating lots of red meat, among other things. Fruits and veggies don't dominate my plate at the moment (although I am eating them--gotta get that Vitamin C, too). Is my diet healthy?

I actually don't know the answer to that. I am guessing that what I am doing is right for me at the moment, but I can certainly see arguments that it is not. And it's not like this is a temporary diet for me, either; I do this a lot. While these are my individual issues, none of them are particularly unusual.

Jenny
06-02-2011, 01:08 PM
I actually made no reference to lean protein nor did I say that butter was bad.

I wasn't arguing with you; I actually thought your post made great sense. I was only pointing out that there are key issues on which the "experts" do not agree.


I've been in neighbourhoods in major US cities where, if there were stores or restaurants at all, they were fast food joints or convenience stores. And depending on what was going on in the neighbourhood, people might not feel safe standing at a bus stop to go somewhere else (assuming that there is even reliable public transit), or walking much further to get to any other kind of store. This website has a good description of these kinds of problems:
http://www.fooddesert.net/

And as for power, in those same neighbourhoods there is a power supply, but it's not reliable. It might go on and off during the day because of overloads to the system (especially during the summer) or because the individual building isn't properly wired. And that won't do much to keep food consistently cold or frozen.

I'm not denying that these might not be problems for everyone in an urban setting, but I think there are hidden, or not so hidden, constraints to eating well that don't get acknowledged.

Point taken.



I'm not sure that I agree that there is a consensus that overly processed foods have been shown to have negative effects on health, either. Certainly most overly processed food is usually lacking in nutrients and so a diet that is high in processed foods is going to be low in nutrition value. But whether there are negative effects from the food alone is another issue.

One might surmise that those who support processed foods as a valid part of one's diet might consist of food manufacturers, fast food purveyors, big ag and their lobbyists. :lol:


I am healing from something right now, and I am healing exceptionally well again. The doctor treating me told me that he wishes he could clone my tissue, so I said "Protein, iron, zinc, vitamin C." He rolled his eyes at me and said I should be thankful for my genes, not my diet.

Funny you should say. A few months back I treated myself to an expensive facial for the first time in my life. The facialist was complimenting my skin, and I proudly told her how I took very good care of it, stayed out of the sun etc, and she said "no, you must thank your parents."

So again, how much we can do ourselves vs how much is just inevitable is another cause for debate.

Prancer
06-02-2011, 01:44 PM
Funny you should say. A few months back I treated myself to an expensive facial for the first time in my life. The facialist was complimenting my skin, and I proudly told her how I took very good care of it, stayed out of the sun etc, and she said "no, you must thank your parents."

Now that I have reached the age where every conversation with one of my army of medical providers begins "At your age," I am hearing a lot about genetics and not a whole lot about my habits, good or bad. The dermatologist is the one exception to that and always says, "Most people your age have a lot of sun damage. You must be one of the few who didn't lay out every summer in the 70s." And that's true. But then she also says, "Aren't you glad you inherited that oily skin?" She approves of my facial wash/moisturizer routine, but says it's the natural oil that makes the real difference. I've had a couple of facials and get the same thing: "This is when the oil gets to be an advantage."

Yeah, 'cause having occasional zits when you're nearly 50 is just fabulous :P.

skatesindreams
06-02-2011, 03:19 PM
Some schools have begun community gardens to give students access to fresh vegetables.

In Los Angeles:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/home_blog/2011/03/micheltorena-community-garden.html

Andrushka
06-02-2011, 06:08 PM
Okay. I'm high risk for breast cancer. Is soy good for me or should I avoid it?

At the moment, I am anemic. Is your advice still fruits, veggies and smaller portions (smaller than what)?

When I was a kid, I suffered a serious dental injury that required multiple surgeries. My parents were advised by the dentist that when I was preparing for and recovering from surgery, I should eat foods that would help me heal--protein, iron, zinc and vitamin c. I have always followed this advice and have always healed exceptionally well. I am healing from something right now, and I am healing exceptionally well again. The doctor treating me told me that he wishes he could clone my tissue, so I said "Protein, iron, zinc, vitamin C." He rolled his eyes at me and said I should be thankful for my genes, not my diet.

Diet? Genetics? Both? Neither?

Since I am actively trying to eat foods high in iron, protein and zinc, I am eating lots of red meat, among other things. Fruits and veggies don't dominate my plate at the moment (although I am eating them--gotta get that Vitamin C, too). Is my diet healthy?

I actually don't know the answer to that. I am guessing that what I am doing is right for me at the moment, but I can certainly see arguments that it is not. And it's not like this is a temporary diet for me, either; I do this a lot. While these are my individual issues, none of them are particularly unusual.

Well,I made no reference to meat not because I am a vegetarian,because I'm not.I just ate a kielbasa.lol I was making the point that people in this country don't eat near enough veggies and fruits.By all means,eat meat.Go for it. I very much believe in people doing what's right for their bodies whatever that may be.For my boys...they function better on red meat.I do not.I do better on fish or chicken People should listen to their bodies. But in no way is it what's right for anyone's body to be eating deep fried,sugar coated,processed till it's unrecognizable crap. That's the point I am trying to make.

I have low blood sugar...I will always eat more protein than I do fruits/veggies because it's needed for me to regulate my blood sugar properly.

I too am at high risk for breast cancer...actually have had a mammogram already and I am only 30. I limit my soy intake,because it does raise the levels of estrogen in ones body...and I observed that not just because I read it but because I paid attention to my body when I ate/drank alot of it.

Prancer
06-02-2011, 07:07 PM
But in no way is it what's right for anyone's body to be eating deep fried,sugar coated,processed till it's unrecognizable crap. That's the point I am trying to make.

And that's fine, but I think that does a better job of defining a particular kind of unhealthy eating than it does defining healthy eating.

Saying that people should listen to their bodies sounds good, but in practical terms, it makes "healthy" very hard to define. My point about meat was not that you said I shouldn't eat it or that I thought you were a vegetarian, but that eating a lot of red meat is considered by many to be unhealthy. Yet I think for me, at least for now, it is healthy, only I also think there is reason to doubt that, particularly since this is a diet I have followed for a substantial percentage of my life. OTOH, my labs are great. But I don't think that other people, eating the same way, would have the same results. This makes defining healthy eating and advising the general public about what to and not to eat pretty dicey--if such personalized dietary guidelines are actually necessary.

I also think that bodies are very often not particularly trustworthy in what they ask for. Most people crave caffeine and sugar when they are tired, for example; that's not really what they need, but that's what their bodies want. And many foods or lack thereof don't really create any notable response at all in most people.

Jenny
06-02-2011, 07:33 PM
More good points Prancer. This is part of the issue with government-generated guidelines - we are all different. Many people find that caffeine affects them for example, and others do not. Another issue is cholesterol - many experts will tell you to limit eggs and many people avoid them altogether, or only eat the whites, because of the fear of cholesterol. And yet, there are people who eat eggs every day and have perfectly healthy cholesterol levels.

It's all so maddening.