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Ziggy
07-15-2011, 02:26 AM
Someone hasn't been paying attention in class. (http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/the-5-stages-of-loss-and-grief/) :P

All this study shows is the general framework for processing bereavement.

But if anything, this quote:
"The first reaction to learning of terminal illness or death of a cherished loved one is to deny the reality of the situation."
actually supports what I said above, when I mentioned partying as defence mechanism, so thanks. :)

IceAlisa
07-15-2011, 02:49 AM
All this study shows is the general framework for processing bereavement.

But if anything, this quote:
"The first reaction to learning of terminal illness or death of a cherished loved one is to deny the reality of the situation."
actually supports what I said above, when I mentioned partying as defence mechanism, so thanks. :)

You haven't really studied the 5 stages of grief, have you? It's not a study and to say that Casey's behavior is the first stage of grief shows further ignorance.

It is a normal reaction to rationalize overwhelming emotions. It is a defense mechanism that buffers the immediate shock. We block out the words and hide from the facts. This is a temporary response that carries us through the first wave of pain.

Where are those overwhelming emotions, the second wave of pain? This is supposed to be a temporary response and in Casey's case it seems to be pretty permanent. Is lying to the police part of this defense mechanism too? I didn't it listed under the 5 stages...:shuffle:

taf2002
07-15-2011, 04:59 AM
There is no proof that she duct tape the child's mouth. The tape could have been on the plastic bags, or the tape could have come from an unrelated source. The brand of tape was the same as what was in the Anthony's home, but how many brands of duct tape are there? That could be pure coincidence. It's all hypothetical. All anyone knows for sure is that there was tape stuck to the child's head. It was all supposition, how the tape got there.

You're right. The duct tape leaped off whereever it was stored in the house & attached itself to Caylee's head. My mistake.

MacMadame
07-15-2011, 05:34 AM
Where are those overwhelming emotions, the second wave of pain? This is supposed to be a temporary response and in Casey's case it seems to be pretty permanent. Is lying to the police part of this defense mechanism too? I didn't it listed under the 5 stages...:shuffle:

Except they aren't stages that you pass through in order. They aren't really stages at all. They are more buckets of common reactions that people have. Some people never have them all and some people never progress out of their first initial set of reactions.

People assuming that everyone should react to a grieving situation the same way and people not being able to cope with different styles of grieving within their own circles are responsible for great misery in this world, for broken marriages and friendships. It would be better if people understood that not everyone reacts to a death in a societal approved way.

But none of that really addresses Ziggy's original argument, which I agree with, which is that not exhibiting standard grief reactions doesn't mean someone is a murderer. Think about the dingo baby case. The mother said dingos dragged her baby off. But she was stoic and didn't show enough grief in public to suit some people's tastes. So she was tried and convicted of murder. Then years later the baby's bones where found, clearly having been carried off by dingos. Oops! Sorry about all those years you spent in prison after losing your child. But you didn't cry on the stand so you must have deserved it somehow! (Not.)

All Casey Anthony's behavior after her daughter went missing proves is that she doesn't react to extreme situations in a way most of us consider normal. That doesn't prove she murdered her child and it doesn't prove she didn't. Perhaps she reacted the way she did because she was deeply grieving and went off the deep end. Perhaps she reacted the way she did because she was a callous bitch. But plenty of callous bitches don't murder their children and sometimes women who love their children deeply do kill them. So either way it's not enough for me to put someone away.

MacMadame
07-15-2011, 05:35 AM
You're right. The duct tape leaped off whereever it was stored in the house & attached itself to Caylee's head. My mistake.

Actually, they never even proved that it was the same duct tape from the same roll.

IceAlisa
07-15-2011, 05:40 AM
Except they aren't stages that you pass through in order. They aren't really stages at all. They are more buckets of common reactions that people have. Some people never have them all and some people never progress out of their first initial set of reactions. Buckets? :confused:


People assuming that everyone should react to a grieving situation the same way and people not being able to cope with different styles of grieving within their own circles are responsible for great misery in this world, for broken marriages and friendships. It would be better if people understood that not everyone reacts to a death in a societal approved way. People don't assume that, at least not on this thread.


But none of that really addresses Ziggy's original argument, which I agree with, which is that not exhibiting standard grief reactions doesn't mean someone is a murderer.
That's not what people are saying at all.


All Casey Anthony's behavior after her daughter went missing proves is that she doesn't react to extreme situations in a way most of us consider normal. That doesn't prove she murdered her child and it doesn't prove she didn't.
It doesn't prove anything but one should use Occam's Razor and see how this behavior fits with the rest of the facts and not as an isolated event.


Perhaps she reacted the way she did because she was deeply grieving and went off the deep end. Perhaps she reacted the way she did because she was a callous bitch. But plenty of callous bitches don't murder their children and sometimes women who love their children deeply do kill them. So either way it's not enough for me to put someone away.
You sound like her behavior was all that they had against her. That's hardly the case. She was, after all convicted of lying to the police. Again, there is no good explanation for her behavior over all, not just isolated instances, other than she is guilty. People may grieve in unconventional ways but that's not all Casey was accused of. That's not the whole picture.

MacMadame
07-15-2011, 06:50 AM
Buckets? :confused:
Groupings, whatever.



People don't assume that, at least not on this thread.

That's not what people are saying at all.

I've seen that behavior on this thread and that is what some people have said.


You sound like her behavior was all that they had against her. That's hardly the case. She was, after all convicted of lying to the police.
And, again, lying to police doesn't make you a murderer.


Again, there is no good explanation for her behavior over all, not just isolated instances, other than she is guilty. People may grieve in unconventional ways but that's not all Casey was accused of. That's not the whole picture.
There's only one explanation that you are willing to accept, but I've seen many explanations offered here that make sense given the whole picture and they don't all involve 1st degree murder.

agalisgv
07-15-2011, 08:11 AM
All this study shows is the general framework for processing bereavement I'm surprised people are even referencing the 5 stages of grief as that's been debunked (or at least seriously challenged) for some time now.
So annealed into pop culture are the five stages of grief—introduced in the 1960s by Swiss-born psychiatrist Elisabeth Kübler-Ross based on her studies of the emotional state of dying patients—that they are regularly referenced without explication.

There appears to be no evidence, however, that most people most of the time go through most of the stages in this or any other order. According to Russell P. Friedman, executive director of the Grief Recovery Institute in Sherman Oaks, Calif. (www.grief-recovery.com), and co-author, with John W. James, of The Grief Recovery Handbook (HarperCollins, 1998), “no study has ever established that stages of grief actually exist, and what are defined as such can’t be called stages. Grief is the normal and natural emotional response to loss.... No matter how much people want to create simple, bullet-point guidelines for the human emotions of grief, there are no stages of grief that fit any two people or relationships.”http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=five-fallacies-of-grief

Here's the larger article:
http://www.grief.net/Articles/Myth%20of%20Stages.pdf

What got confused early on were stages related to dying that were later misreported as stages of grief. But the two are quite different.

cruisin
07-15-2011, 01:10 PM
You're right. The duct tape leaped off whereever it was stored in the house & attached itself to Caylee's head. My mistake.

You completely missed the point. 1. Casey could have used the duct tape to seal the bag, not put it over the child's mouth. The body had been effected by the elements by the time it was found, the tape could have come lose from the bag and gotten stuck to the child's head. They did not find it across her mouth/nose, it was attached to her head. 2. It could have come from some other source, litter that an animal dragged over. I realize that sounds unlikely, but legally it is possible. 3. And very important:


Actually, they never even proved that it was the same duct tape from the same roll.

Exactly. All they proved was that it was the same brand. And as I said earlier, there are not many brands of duct tape. so, it is entirely possible that it did not come from the Anthony home.

I will say this again: I do think Casey had something to do with Caylee's death, I do think she had something to do with concealing the body. And I do think the duct tape probably was from their home and either Casey or her father put it on the child. Whether it was put on her mouth, to keep her quiet and accidentally cause her death or it was used to secure the plastic bags, I don't know. I'm just trying to show why this "evidence" didn't hold up, no proof of how it got there or what it was used for.

taf2002
07-15-2011, 03:38 PM
IF the duct tape was over the mouth or over the mouth & nose, we can then infer that she was already dead or she was going to be dead. You can't use duct tape to keep a child quiet. When you remove it, skin will come with it & a loving grandmother is going to notice & a 2yr old is going to tell.

Casey got off murder charges with this scenerio: the child drowned & I panicked & got rid of the body. So if she got rid of the body, who put it in trash bags? Who threw it in a swamp? And if the tape is on the outside of the bag or already in the swamp, how did it get exactly where it needed to be to hold the jaw in place?

You can't just say Casey was aquitted, ergo she is innocent of everything else. She used that for her defense so we have to assume that's the way it happened. So if I find her actions despicable, I'm not assuming a lot of things that have not been proven. You can't use this stuff to get off murder charges & then say, oh but I'm a loving mother & this was an aberration. This "aberration" went on for months while concerned people hunted for Caylee. The balloon boy's parents maintained the lie for only a couple of days. Casey maintained it for months. If you (you being general) think that's acceptable behavior, please never move into my neighborhood.

cruisin
07-15-2011, 04:00 PM
IF the duct tape was over the mouth or over the mouth & nose, we can then infer that she was already dead or she was going to be dead. You can't use duct tape to keep a child quiet. When you remove it, skin will come with it & a loving grandmother is going to notice & a 2yr old is going to tell.

Agreed, but we are not talking about a rational person. anyone capable of putting duct tape over their child's mouth, to keep them quiet, is not worrying about grandma noticing. And the family was so dysfunctional that grandma probably wouldn't have done anything anyway.


Casey got off murder charges with this scenerio: the child drowned & I panicked & got rid of the body. So if she got rid of the body, who put it in trash bags? Who threw it in a swamp? And if the tape is on the outside of the bag or already in the swamp, how did it get exactly where it needed to be to hold the jaw in place?

You can't just say Casey was aquitted, ergo she is innocent of everything else. She used that for her defense so we have to assume that's the way it happened. So if I find her actions despicable, I'm not assuming a lot of things that have not been proven. You can't use this stuff to get off murder charges & then say, oh but I'm a loving mother & this was an aberration. This "aberration" went on for months while concerned people hunted for Caylee. The balloon boy's parents maintained the lie for only a couple of days. Casey maintained it for months. If you (you being general) think that's acceptable behavior, please never move into my neighborhood.

I am not arguing any of that. I do not think she was innocent. I am not sure that she intended to kill the child, but I do think she is guilty in the causing of the child's death. All I was trying to explain was that the duct tape was not covering the mouth and/or nose when they found the child's remains. It was supposed that the duct tape was there originally. It also was not proved that the duct tape came from the home, so the tape as damning evidence was flawed.

As to what went on for the months that people searched for Caylee, I hope they fine Casey so much that any money she makes from any media, entertainment, literary (term used loosely) offers, will go toward paying the fine. I hope she never sees a nickel of any money she makes off of this horrific tragedy.

IceAlisa
07-15-2011, 05:10 PM
I'm surprised people are even referencing the 5 stages of grief as that's been debunked (or at least seriously challenged) for some time now. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=five-fallacies-of-grief

Here's the larger article:
http://www.grief.net/Articles/Myth%20of%20Stages.pdf

What got confused early on were stages related to dying that were later misreported as stages of grief. But the two are quite different.

Psychology is for the most part a soft science. The stages of grief are still taught and no one ever says that they are cast in stone, especially for an individual. Common sense, really. The article actually quotes Kubler-Ross herself:
“The stages have evolved since their
introduction, and they have been very misunderstood over the past three decades. They
were never meant to help tuck messy emotions
into neat packages. They are responses to loss
that many people have, but there is not a typical response to loss, as there is no typical loss.
Our grief is as individual as our lives. Not everyone goes through all of them or goes in a prescribed order.”

Yes, this guy challenged it. So what? Lots of people challenged and are challenging Freud but his theories are still taught.

mpal2
07-15-2011, 05:10 PM
This (http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20510091,00.html) is just insane. Money is mostly coming in from men. I'm betting they want to get in good with a known party girl and hope for more.


"I do not know Casey personally, nor am I supporting her as a person, nor am I anything like the people sending her love letters and asking her to marry them," one of her more generous male donors, who's in his late 20s, says. "However, what I am supporting is the jury's decision to acquit based on lack of evidence failing to overcome the reasonable doubt standard."



I don't get this guy's logic. Donate to a group that has something to do with the legal system then instead of the party girl. :rolleyes:

taf2002
07-15-2011, 05:10 PM
There was no nose or mouth when Caylee was found. The tape was in place where a nose and/or mouth would have been. The state's expert did say it was put there, otherwise the jaw would have fallen off the skull and I don't think any reasonable person would believe that the tape accidently happened to fall where it did.

Circumstantial evidence when added up is better in many cases than eye-witness testimony, because people don't always agree on what was seen. IMO where the jury went wrong is this: can you explain away (not prove) the 1st fact, the 2nd fact, etc. Yes, but when you add up all the known facts, do they paint a picture that is different than the defense?

ETA: I'm not saying she should have been found guilty of 1st degree murder. That doesn't mean I'm a credulous fool who believes that incredible story from Baez.

IceAlisa
07-15-2011, 05:14 PM
And, again, lying to police doesn't make you a murderer.Alone it doesn't. But the collection of facts is explained well only by one theory: she had something to do with the death. And it's the simplest explanation as well.



There's only one explanation that you are willing to accept, but I've seen many explanations offered here that make sense given the whole picture and they don't all involve 1st degree murder.

No, not necessarily 1st degree murder, but manslaughter or negligence resulting in death. I don't see another explanation that would make her completely innocent of the child's death. Do you? If so, please share.