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genevieve
06-14-2011, 05:41 PM
Statements like this where liberal gender equity notions come so close to fundamentalist notions that women must be covered up to avoid being objectified scare me.
Nothing in what VIETgrlTerifa's post said women should cover up :rolleyes:

VIETgrlTerifa
06-14-2011, 05:48 PM
I can see how my post may be construed that way, but I am in no way suggesting women should be covered (like in Burqas or the amish) or that there is any shame in wanting to look sexy, etc. What I was saying is that it's a fact that sex sells in our culture and women have a lot of messages from society and the media that they have to look a certain way in order to look attractive or desirable. There is a big difference between what type of items are marketed towards women compared to the ones marketed towards men in terms of what those clothes are intended to accomplish.

IceAlisa
06-14-2011, 06:16 PM
I knew that's not what you meant, but I've seen this argument used to justify veiling women.

PDilemma
06-14-2011, 06:31 PM
I knew that's not what you meant, but I've seen this argument used to justify veiling women.

Or make them wear long baggy clothing at all times.

It's the same language with a different purpose. And I understand VietgrlTerifa's clarified point. But narrowing that down to point at what we wear is not going to solve the problem. Clothing is not what created those attitudes. Women were treated as property in many eras and still are in many places where clothing was or is very intentionally deemphasizing sexuality. We have gained more freedom in how to dress at the same time that we have gained more legal and social equality.

Asli
06-14-2011, 06:35 PM
I do feel that the pinkety pink princess stuff along with the idea that "Some day my prince will come" is detrimental and ridiculous. Thankfully, for a lot of girls it's just a stage around 3 to 5. They are into wearing black by the time they are 12, having gained a lot of cynicism along the way.

Yes, the pink period in clothes and the princess period seem very short for the little girls I see around me, but the toys department is all pink and princessish even for 8-9-year olds. They should catch up.

As for the "Some day my prince will come" thing, that's nonexistant even in the new Disney cartoons now. Even if the new Disney heroins end up marrying a prince, it is more through a "can do" approach and a trophy as the result of their own struggles. ;)

IceAlisa
06-14-2011, 06:38 PM
Or make them wear long baggy clothing at all times.

It's the same language with a different purpose. Yes, it's just a different form of piety, dressed up as 'progressive'. It also carries an implicit message that being sexy is bad for a woman, which is where the two ideologies meet.

PeterG
06-14-2011, 10:25 PM
As for the "Some day my prince will come" thing, that's nonexistant even in the new Disney cartoons now. Even if the new Disney heroins end up marrying a prince, it is more through a "can do" approach and a trophy as the result of their own struggles. ;)

Maybe the children of today will have a more grounded view on things when they are adults. But I do know at least a handful of intelligent women in their 40's or 50's who have implied in one way or another that there is a part of them that want to be treated as or regarded as "a princess".

I try to be open to what's behind that kind of statement and not judge, but inside, a part of me is :eek: :eek: :eek: !

FigureSpins
06-14-2011, 10:53 PM
I work with a woman who wears pink every day. She's strong, smart and capable, holding a vital position for which she is well-respected by everyone. She must be pushing 70 but has beautiful posture, which results from her stint as a fashion model. I have a lot of respect for her and it really changed my opinion of the color pink. It's a good color for her and a private chat revealed that it's her "power color." She's no princess, believe me. I've witnessed her resolving conflict with tact and grace, but she's like steel underneath all that pink.

Personally, I don't care for all the blackwear today, but the fashion buyers love it, so it's hard to avoid it, especially in larger sizes. Makes me think of the character in the "Jurassic Park" novel who only wears black because he has better things to do in the morning than color-coordinate outfits, lol.

Karina1974
06-14-2011, 11:07 PM
Actually, if men knew how comfortable a dress can be..., not only would they wear dresses themselves... :rofl:

You ought to come to a contra dance in the New England area. You'd see as almost as many guys wearing the long, flowy skirts that are the style for that type of dance (and kilts too) as the women. And it is completely accepted; anyone who would start looking askance at that or making snide comments about it would be shown the door.

PeterG
06-14-2011, 11:39 PM
I work with a woman who wears pink every day. She's strong, smart and capable, holding a vital position for which she is well-respected by everyone.

I am pro-pink myself. But anti-pink-propoganda!!!!!!!!!! :soapbox:

VIETgrlTerifa
06-15-2011, 12:25 AM
I love pink as well. Especially on guys.

IceAlisa
06-15-2011, 12:37 AM
I love pink as well. Especially on guys.

I love this kind of shirt (http://www.us.thomaspink.com/pws/images/catalogue/products/00110234/product/00110234_pink_2.jpg) on guys with a tie and a suit.

I rarely wear pink. Blue is my favorite color.

genevieve
06-15-2011, 08:11 AM
Or make them wear long baggy clothing at all times.

is that the only option besides sexy clothing? :huh:


Yes, it's just a different form of piety, dressed up as 'progressive'. It also carries an implicit message that being sexy is bad for a woman, which is where the two ideologies meet.
I don't know what progressives you're hanging out with...where I live, the new feminism is about being a burlesque dancer....both for women and men ("boylesque")

PDilemma
06-15-2011, 03:45 PM
In many places and in many people's ideology, second wave feminism with its emphasis on gender neutral clothing is still alive and well. The short hair, baggy t-shirts, plain jeans or the generic business suit preferably in a neutral color (the sort Hillary Clinton long-favored--her liberation into color is fairly recent). When I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, the idea that those forms of dress were how women could be taken seriously were still prevalent.

Third wave feminism has embraced the free choice of wearing whatever you want including what some who study fashion and feminism are calling the "queer femme" alternative. But it remains controversial and many still hold the second wave standard which says, as VietGrrll didn't mean to put it, that we won't be equal until we look gender neutral. The objection third wavers have to that is precisely what IceAlisa concisely stated: the message of that is that women being sexy is bad or is what makes us unworthy or unequal.

IceAlisa
06-15-2011, 04:54 PM
I don't know what progressives you're hanging out with...where I live, the new feminism is about being a burlesque dancer....both for women and men ("boylesque")
That must be nice.

The progressives that I know say things like: I wear pantsuits and flats to work because only secretaries wear heels and pencil skirts.

The message is of course if you look feminine and chic, you must be dumb help. Gotta look like a man to appear executive. :rolleyes: