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agalisgv
06-13-2011, 11:51 PM
I think use of "experiment" in this context is interesting because that's the same language and framework conservatives use to describe same-sex marriage.
Why the Same-Sex Marriage Experiment Will Not Work http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/24/sex-marriage-experiment-work

. Like many other failed social experiments before it, the same-sex marriage agenda is driven by a blinding rush of idealism filled with the best of intentions. http://www.ausprayernet.org.au/feature/feature_articles_02.php

Redefining marriage is a radical social experiment. Previous generations of social experimenters have caused unimaginable misery for millions of people. http://concernedforlife.blogspot.com/2011/06/same-sex-marriage-societal-experiment.html

skatingfan5
06-13-2011, 11:53 PM
And the choices made in the first 18 months will reflect their viewpoint. I'm reminded of someone else who wanted to limit gendering on her newborn. For this reason she chose to decorate her baby's room in earth tones before she knew the sex.Poor baby, having to look at dreary earth tones. :( Perhaps she included reds and oranges in the "earth tones" nursery? After black and white, infants first begin to distinguish and respond to bright, primary colors -- soft pastels and muted tones, not so much.

Asli
06-14-2011, 01:05 AM
Asli, I'm trying to understand your point, but not quite getting it. It's my understanding Jazz didn't like his school because he was being teased for dressing the way he wanted. Are you saying he shouldn't be able to dress that way, or his parents should be talking him into a new wardrobe? Or are you saying the parents are forcing Jazz to wear feminine clothes?

I am saying that according to the article, the parents have approached the choice of clothes as a question of the random choice of colour and model among all clothes in a shop. They haven't explained to Jazz from the beginning that many of the clothes we wear aren't neutral, they carry a meaning, just like all other signs in our culture which it is the parent's responsibility to help the children decipher.

If his parents had explained to Jazz that some of the clothes are manufactured for girls and are considered girls' clothes by virtually everyone, then he could choose his clothes in a way that expressed who he was, using the signs of his particular culture. As it is, he was as unaware of what he was saying with his clothes, as if he were using words of which he didn't know the meaning.


Speaking broadly, the theme I'm getting from some in this thread is it's ok to question gender roles as long as one does it discreetly and doesn't make an issue out of it. I can't help but think how similar that is to responses I hear from conservatives re: sexual orientation--"they (meaning lgbts) can do what they want, just don't put it in my face." "I don't have a problem with gays, but I wish they'd just keep it to themselves instead of publicizing it." Etc.

I think two things are being confused by the parents.
1. Who we are
2. How we express it

If Jazz were transgendered or gay and wanted to wear clothes made for girls for that reason, now that would be a cause worth fighting for.

However apparently he is a boy who dresses and does his hair "like a girl" while asking his mother to give him a written note explaining that he is a boy - because he absolutely wants it to be known. His whole life is affected by this non-issue.

His parents seem to think that the choice of clothes in itself is a kind of freedom. It is only a freedom if he knows what they mean.

There are so many gender clichés that should be NOT be fed to children. For instance, a child should not be told that any activities are rather for boys or for girls or that any profession is rather for women or for men. They should feel that in a relationship women and men are equal in everything from making the decisions to the domestic tasks if they live together. They shouldn't be told how they are supposed to feel and behave (less afraid, politer etc.) according to whether they are a boy or a girl.

Unfortunately this clothes issue seems to be affecting Jazz in a way that prevents him from getting to these vital issues.

Japanfan
06-14-2011, 02:51 AM
If Jazz were transgendered or gay and wanted to wear clothes made for girls for that reason, now that would be a cause worth fighting for.


You're saying that it's okay for TG or gay men to wear 'girl's' clothes or colours, not straight men?
[/QUOTE]


There are so many gender clichés that should be NOT be fed to children. For instance, a child should not be told that any activities are rather for boys or for girls or that any profession is rather for women or for men. They should feel that in a relationship women and men are equal in everything from making the decisions to the domestic tasks if they live together.


So they should have choices with regard to activities and profession, but not colour and hairstyle?




They shouldn't be told how they are supposed to feel and behave (less afraid, politer etc.) according to whether they are a boy or a girl.


In telling kids to adopt gender norms in appearance, parents do tell kids how they should feel and behave.

numbers123
06-14-2011, 02:54 AM
I have no objection to raising a child in a genderless environment, the problem I have is with the media attention that this family and child have received. Now, however the situation plays out, the child and family are destined to be in the media spotlight.

rjblue
06-14-2011, 02:58 AM
Our local Superstore (Loblaw's grocery chain) has its toy aisle labelled Boy Toys and Girl Toys. One of these days I'm going to bring some spray paint to the store and become a vandalising activist.

VIETgrlTerifa
06-14-2011, 03:03 AM
I have no objection to raising a child in a genderless environment, the problem I have is with the media attention that this family and child have received. Now, however the situation plays out, the child and family are destined to be in the media spotlight.

Unless it's short-lived and the family declines anymore interviews.

jeffisjeff
06-14-2011, 03:55 AM
Our local Superstore (Loblaw's grocery chain) has its toy aisle labelled Boy Toys and Girl Toys. One of these days I'm going to bring some spray paint to the store and become a vandalising activist.

I bought my just-turned-6-year-old daughter legos for her birthday. I am trying to raise an engineer (;)), and she loves pink and dolls, etc., so I looked for some girl-themed legos. No luck (other than one set that she already has), so I got a generic green-boxed set with houses, people, etc. I also got her the doll she really wanted. She hasn't touched the legos, but won't put the doll down. Of course, my son immediately asked her "Sister, do you want me to build these for you." She was like "Sure. Whatever." :rofl:

heckles
06-14-2011, 04:23 AM
Our local Superstore (Loblaw's grocery chain) has its toy aisle labelled Boy Toys and Girl Toys.

When you order a Happy Meal at McDonald's, the cashier asks if it's for a boy or girl, and the toy is based on your answer.

Asli
06-14-2011, 10:56 AM
Our local Superstore (Loblaw's grocery chain) has its toy aisle labelled Boy Toys and Girl Toys. One of these days I'm going to bring some spray paint to the store and become a vandalising activist.

The worst is that interesting toys such as Lego boxes are mainly in the boys section while the girls are left with the pinkety pink gadgets. (I have two daughters.)

OTOH the toys designed for girls are slightly "prettier" while the ones designed for boys contain the ugliest monsters, the fugliest colours and most agressive designs imaginable. :rolleyes: So many girls don't want these toys and understand them. Even being able to look at these horrible toys must be a rite of initiation for the poor boys!

All in all, neither side is satisfactory. The best toys are upto 5 years old when there is less separation among boys and girls IMO. Also Playmobil has good toys that are not intended either for boys or for girls.

Asli
06-14-2011, 11:36 AM
You're saying that it's okay for TG or gay men to wear 'girl's' clothes or colours, not straight men?


First, we are talking about a little child and not a man. A man can wear whatever he wants, because he knows who he is, is able to understand cultural signs and to measure the consequences of his actions.

Secondly, wearing a pink dress and braids screams either "I am a girl" or "I feel like a girl" in our cultures. It's no use pretending that this isn't so. So if a transgendered or gay boy wants to wear girls' clothes because otherwise he feels he is contradicting his identity, in that case it is worth facing the consequences, because the child's feeling of self is in question. is parents can explain this situation and there's nothing any other adults can decently say against it. As for a little boy who does not feel like a girl but who has been told that he can choose any clothes items from the shop, he is facing enormous consequences for nothing. Excluded from school, uncomfortable with other adults, feeling like a freak and probably unable to mingle with other children. What does this do to his confidence and his social skills? :(

If there is a fight to be fought against gender-specific dress code, it is the grown-up men and women who should fight it. Actually women have fought it and won in the Western society. We don't have to wear corsets or hats or voluminous skirts and we have a vast choice of styles and colours. Thanks to that, little girls can now wear jeans and t-shirts when they go to the playground and not be impeded by fancy dresses.

The men are really behind, they are so limited in their choice!
Actually, if men knew how comfortable a dress can be compared to a suit, not only would they wear dresses themselves but they would try to prevent women from wearing them. :rofl:

genevieve
06-14-2011, 03:57 PM
I think two things are being confused by the parents.
1. Who we are
2. How we express it

If Jazz were transgendered or gay and wanted to wear clothes made for girls for that reason, now that would be a cause worth fighting for.

:eek: wow


Secondly, wearing a pink dress and braids screams either "I am a girl" or "I feel like a girl" in our cultures.
Only until people stop buying into it and let their kids wear what the hell they want and support their choices.-+


It's no use pretending that this isn't so. So if a transgendered or gay boy wants to wear girls' clothes because otherwise he feels he is contradicting his identity, in that case it is worth facing the consequences, because the child's feeling of self is in question. is parents can explain this situation and there's nothing any other adults can decently say against it.
this is wrong on so many levels I can only :lol: I will say that I appreciate that this hypothetical trans kid has supportive parents who are willing to go up against the majority who will think their kid is a freak and that they are ruining his life by letting him behave so far outside society's norms...oh wait.. that sounds an awful lot like what's going on here.

VIETgrlTerifa
06-14-2011, 04:36 PM
Actually women have fought it and won in the Western society. We don't have to wear corsets or hats or voluminous skirts and we have a vast choice of styles and colours. Thanks to that, little girls can now wear jeans and t-shirts when they go to the playground and not be impeded by fancy dresses.

Except that a lot of what women wear or at least what we're encouraged to wear is still highly objectifying compared to what men wear. We may have won a few battles, but we aren't close to winning a war here.

IceAlisa
06-14-2011, 04:48 PM
I do feel that the pinkety pink princess stuff along with the idea that "Some day my prince will come" is detrimental and ridiculous. Thankfully, for a lot of girls it's just a stage around 3 to 5. They are into wearing black by the time they are 12, having gained a lot of cynicism along the way.

PDilemma
06-14-2011, 05:16 PM
Except that a lot of what women wear or at least what we're encouraged to wear is still highly objectifying compared to what men wear. We may have won a few battles, but we aren't close to winning a war here.

Statements like this where liberal gender equity notions come so close to fundamentalist notions that women must be covered up to avoid being objectified scare me.