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Ziggy
09-21-2011, 02:46 PM
Review of JGP Baltic Cup

http://thenakedice.blogspot.com/2011/09/jgp-baltic-cup-ladies-review.html

I really like Satoko Miyahara too. You can tell she's going to be really good when she gets older b/c she's already so expressive! I love to see that in younger skaters. :)

The attempts at bitchiness fell really flat. :P

And Miyahara's pre-juvenile "expression" was :scream:.

I was so pissed off that she placed above Cesario. Yes, Samantha had a horrible flutz but her overall level of skating was out of a different league.

Cesario had much better spins and presented her programs way better. And her jumps were huge.

NMURA
09-21-2011, 07:56 PM
Looks like some Americans are really shocked to see "mature" Cecario was beaten by "juvenile" Miyahara. I must say the gap between them is even bigger than the "flutz". Miyahara could increase 4-5 points in TES with no risk by including two 2A-3Ts (like Lipnitskaya). why does she attempt the 3Lz-3T, anyway? It's not so "rational" to practice different (difficult) combinations for SP and FS. Sotnikova did different 3-3s in last season but we all know the reason. I think some judges have appreciated her (seemingly irrational) technical ambitions, which could be translated into high expectations for future. I've heard Miyahara's idol is Mao Asada. Once you could master the 3Lz-3T, the next step would be obvious. Frankly, I think she's more like little Midori Ito.

BTW Miyahara has gained more points in spins than Cesario.

Lara
09-21-2011, 08:01 PM
You do realize Ziggy is far, far from American? :P

kwanatic
09-21-2011, 08:53 PM
The attempts at bitchiness fell really flat. :P

And Miyahara's pre-juvenile "expression" was :scream:.

I was so pissed off that she placed above Cesario. Yes, Samantha had a horrible flutz but her overall level of skating was out of a different league.

Cesario had much better spins and presented her programs way better. And her jumps were huge.

Well if we learned anything from JGP Brisbane, we know that the judges have no problem focusing in on one aspect of a program rather than looking at the program as a whole. That was my issue with Courtney Hicks versus Risa Shoji. Shoji had the better overall performance but Hicks won...

I'll give credit where credit is due to Miyahara for at least attempting to bring something else to her skating. No her presentation isn't as polished as Cesario, but it's nice to see a 13 (or is she 14?) year old doing more (or trying to do more) than just skate and jump.

Hedwig
09-21-2011, 08:55 PM
I sooo wish I could see Miyahara's SP on youtube but it is geoblocked in Germany. Is there any other site where it is uploaded to?

MikiAndoFan#1
09-21-2011, 10:44 PM
I sooo wish I could see Miyahara's SP on youtube but it is geoblocked in Germany. Is there any other site where it is uploaded to?

Try this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVP_XuXqWyk. :)

Ziggy
09-22-2011, 01:08 AM
Looks like some Americans are really shocked to see "mature" Cecario was beaten by "juvenile" Miyahara.

Read my location, genius.


I must say the gap between them is even bigger than the "flutz".

Yes, it is.

Cesario has much higher jumps, better spins, better lines, better choreographed programs, better lines, more power in her skating. Do I need to go on?


BTW Miyahara has gained more points in spins than Cesario.

Which says much more about the quality of the judging than the quality of her spins. :P


Well if we learned anything from JGP Brisbane, we know that the judges have no problem focusing in on one aspect of a program rather than looking at the program as a whole.

The problem is the opposite. The judges ARE looking at the program as a whole, instead of evaluating different aspects of it and giving credit where it's due.

Because Miyahara is a very competent jumper, the judges gave her high points for everything else when, at the moment, all that she is is a jumping bean.


I'll give credit where credit is due to Miyahara for at least attempting to bring something else to her skating. No her presentation isn't as polished as Cesario, but it's nice to see a 13 (or is she 14?) year old doing more (or trying to do more) than just skate and jump.

Skate and jump is pretty much all that she did in the SP.

In the FS she at least tried to skate to the music, at least part of the time.

But the program seemed to have no concept whatsoever and she just moved her arms randomly in a chaotic and pointless fashion that made Plushenko look sophisticated. ;)

Her posture and lines were not good and it just all looked like a complete car crash and made me wish, she just skated and jumped and spared us that. :P

NMURA
09-22-2011, 01:20 AM
Axis of Evil = Washington + New York? or Seoul?

Anyway, I don't think the patriot Ziggy's comment is not persuasive at all. You must be believing you're much more knowledgeable than the judges. An "overall" skater won't be staying junior after 18 y/o in the first place. Only overall mediocre skaters would.

VALuvsMKwan
09-22-2011, 01:28 AM
Axis of Evil = Washington + New York? or Seoul?

Anyway, I don't think the patriot Ziggy's comment is not persuasive at all. You must be believing you're much more knowledgeable than the judges. An "overall" skater won't be staying junior after 18 y/o in the first place. Only overall mediocre skaters would.

NMURA, Ziggy is of Polish nationality, not American (for which I am sure he utters thanks every day upon rising).

Please be sure about what you post before you make assumptions about nationalities of individuals (and was the additional of the "Seoul" comment really necessary?). Thank you.

Sylvia
09-22-2011, 01:44 AM
An "overall" skater won't be staying junior after 18 y/o in the first place. Only overall mediocre skaters would.
I disagree. Yuki Nishino turned 18 in September and Samantha Cesario 18 in August. Nishino is about to skate in her 8th JGP since 2007. Cesario will compete in her 3rd JGP coming up. Skaters develop at different rates, and there's nothing wrong with getting valuable competitive experience (and ISU ranking points/Season Best scores) on the JGP if the ladies' fields are as deep as they are in both Japan and the USA.

Ziggy
09-22-2011, 01:47 AM
Axis of Evil = Washington + New York? or Seoul?

Apparently, copying and pasting a phrase into Google is too hard for you, so here is my helping hand: :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_evil


You must be believing you're much more knowledgeable than the judges.

No, it is not that simple.

1) The way the current judging system works, means that the judges play safe. Because if they are out of line, there are repercussions.

2) The way the human mind works means that we focus on the whole and not the constituent parts. The problem is, IJS in constructed exactly in the opposite fashion. It requires the judges to focus on particular details IN ISOLATION.

And then there is another related psychological mechanism, anchoring. If I give a skater a high mark for something, it automatically reduces my range. My other marks will be close to that mark.

And then there is a third related psychological mechanism (very closely linked to the one above). We want to be consistent. If we say A, we want to say B.

Of course, humans are not machines. I am sure that if judges received appropriate psychological training regarding the above and if they became aware of those mechanisms, they would be able to control them.

But ISU doesn't seem to notice or acknowledge this problem, therefore nothing is being done to remedy it.

3) I generally pay loads of attention to detail and I am much more nitpicky than the average person. I know that.


An "overall" skater won't be staying junior after 18 y/o in the first place. Only overall mediocre skaters would.

A very cheap shot.

Skaters might choose to remain Junior for loads of different reasons.


NMURA, Ziggy is of Polish nationality, not American (for which I am sure he utters thanks every day upon rising).

:lol:

I think I would rather be American than Polish, actually. ;)

But then the grass is always greener... ;)

On a more serious note, I very deeply despise the concepts of nationalism, patriotism, etc. and I cheer for all skaters (especially ones from nations were skating isn't developed and who have no political backing) and I couldn't care less where a skater is from, as long as they are good and/or interesting. :)

(There are of course are some Polish skaters that I support like crazy but it's because I know/like/respect/etc. them and not just because they are Polish)

Jenna
09-22-2011, 01:49 AM
I disagree. Yuki Nishino turned 18 in September and Samantha Cesario 18 in August. Nishino is about to skate in her 8th JGP since 2007. Cesario will compete in her 3rd JGP coming up. Skaters develop at different rates, and there's nothing wrong with getting valuable competitive experience (and ISU ranking points/Season Best scores) on the JGP if the ladies' fields are as deep as they are in both Japan and the USA.

Thank you.

As I said before, not every girl can peak at age 13. Some of us develop at different rates and the older skaters shouldn't be scored negatively because of their age..

kwanatic
09-22-2011, 04:09 AM
The problem is the opposite. The judges ARE looking at the program as a whole, instead of evaluating different aspects of it and giving credit where it's due.

Because Miyahara is a very competent jumper, the judges gave her high points for everything else when, at the moment, all that she is is a jumping bean.


But that's what happened with Hicks and Shoji. Hicks skated fast (and all over the place) and jumped big (and fell twice). Yet her PCS were the highest of the night. I was shocked b/c most of the time two falls, or two blatantly obvious mistakes, are penalized across the board. Hicks sloppy delivery in addition to her technical errors didn't seem to factor into her score at all.

Shoji OTOH had a ratified 3-3, a 2-3, beautiful choreography and musical interpretation, and no visible errors. I completely disagreed with the judging of that competition and I really think Shoji wuzrobbed. She should have won, if only slightly.

I agree that Cesario got lowballed in this competition, particularly in the PCS, as is customary when it comes to holding skaters down. I do like Miyahara and think that she has a certain spark about her. She's rather far away from being soup but I think she's one to keep an eye on in the future.

But yeah, so far some of the judging for these events has been off...:huh:

pinky166
09-22-2011, 05:23 AM
Looks like some Americans are really shocked to see "mature" Cecario was beaten by "juvenile" Miyahara..

Yup I was annoyed when it happened but I can't say I was surprised after what happened in Australia when "messy" Hicks beat "elegant" Shoji. I personally think both Risa and Samantha are gorgeous skaters who delivered great programs at their respective events and deserved to score higher for what they put out. Both girls have elegance and maturity which most of the other competitors lacked, Cesario has huge jumps, Shoji's aren't so big but she did land a ratified 3-3-2 and a 2a-3t in her program speaking to her high degree of technical ante, both girls spin well, and they both are packaged well and have the right look/body type for the sport. I don't get it, but whatever, I guess judges prefer jumping beans, regardless of how tiny these jumps are or how clunky the in-between skating is. I personally prefer Risa and Samantha to Miyahara and Courtney, and think they are both better skaters in their respective situations. But that's just my opinion and maybe I'm in the minority. And in the situation of Risa and Courtney, they are both the same age and look the same age and are right in the middle age of juniors (15), so that whole angle doesn't even play a factor in their case.

feraina
09-22-2011, 05:54 AM
Miyahara and Hicks are both fast (and sloppy), but importantly, both have a lot more transitions in their programs than Cesario and Shoji -- at least an order of magnitude more, especially compared to Cesario, who does mainly cross-overs and mohawks in between her elements (albeit very elegantly).