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Skittl1321
03-22-2012, 02:50 PM
You do realize that those aren't legal pair lifts, not even group 1 or 2, and rely on the liftee resting on the lifter's body, not on the lifter's arm strength?


Yes, I'm plenty aware that it was a dance style lift. But I've seen men lasso lift each other into full overhead positions.

What I'm saying is upper body strength is NOT the only factor. The elite pairs men are ALL plenty strong to lift the elite pairs girls, who, while varying in weight are all slight.

Skittl1321
03-22-2012, 02:53 PM
And it's official... Caitlin and Josh have teamed up.

http://www.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120322&content_id=27501206&vkey=ice_news

Very exciting! Best of luck to them.

shan
03-22-2012, 03:03 PM
Interesting read. I hope Caitlin and Josh have great success!!

Sylvia
03-23-2012, 04:26 PM
FYI, the original link for the Yankowskas/Reagan article has been changed -- see the separate Caitlin Yankowskas/Joshua Reagan thread in GSD for the new link: It's official: Caitlin Yankowskas & Joshua Reagan have paired up (http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=83028)

Taylor Toth and Kiri Baga have formed a new pair team: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120323&content_id=27536620&vkey=ice_news
Also mentioned in the article (scroll down) is another new pair team planning to compete Senior:
Danny O'Shea and Tarah Kayne. Both Baga and Kayne are new to pairs.

DimaToe
03-23-2012, 04:31 PM
Taylor Toth and Kiri Baga have formed a new pair team: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120323&content_id=27536620&vkey=ice_news

Seems like some people's wish for Kiri was granted :D

5Ali3
03-23-2012, 04:35 PM
Yes, I'm plenty aware that it was a dance style lift. But I've seen men lasso lift each other into full overhead positions.

What I'm saying is upper body strength is NOT the only factor. The elite pairs men are ALL plenty strong to lift the elite pairs girls, who, while varying in weight are all slight.

Upper body strength is definitely not the only factor, as the main strength needed for a lift - that it, a lift done with proper technique - is actually in the lower body. ;) Good lift technique involves not only upper and lower body strength, but also skating skills (especially efficient mohawk turns), body awareness, balance, and body alignment. I think stamina is also underestimated as a factor in lifts: both the stamina to execute the third lift in a competitive long program with proper technique (on the part of both partners), but also the stamina to train lifts day-in, day-out, session-in, session-out. Many overuse injuries start when a skater gets tired and performs elements without proper technique - the little stuff really contributes to the overall wear-and-tear on the body.

IMHO, one consequence of Juvenile/Intermediate Pairs, as well as Novice pairs with large size discrepancies, is that both partners learn sloppy lift technique because it's possible to execute a lift without proper technique. I've seen this happen with both boys and girls: the boys develop the habit of lifting from their upper bodies, while the girls don't understand how to hold themselves (or even how important it is to hold themselves). Good coaches attempt to teach good technique, even at the lower levels or when a pair could get away with poor technique due to a size discrepancy, but any of us who are parents or have worked with kids or have honest memories of ourselves as kids :slinkaway can understand how teaching proper technique doesn't mean that kids will "get it" if they can get away with something easier.

on preview: it just occurred to me, for the first time, that Lutz lifts may teach/enforce/allow improper body alignment for boys. I'll have to watch some Juvenile pairs to check my hypothesis, but I bet that quite a few boys lean their head back-and-to-the-side instead of just to-the-side...

after googling: okay, I'm not comfortable using current skaters, especially minors, as examples, but this is just too funny not to share, especially since it illustrates my point. [This skating parent has posted quite a few videos of her children on youtube, and I found the still picture on skating.about.com, so I hope it's okay to link to them.]
- Here's an example of a Lutz lift (http://0.tqn.com/d/figureskating/1/0/z/i/-/-/armpitllift.jpg) where the boy has good alignment: his head is a little tilted towards his left shoulder instead of turned, but he has the basic concept of head-over-shoulders-over-hips-over-skates [the "over-skates" part is harder to see because he's mid-mohawk, but it looks like he's essentially in the right place]. The girl, BTW, is clearly doing an excellent job of holding herself: notice the "up-and-back" tension in her back; the width across her sternum (shoulders back, not rolled forward, without being behind her core); the length in her neck; the position of her hips relative to her core (i.e., behind her); and then the position of her legs relative to her hips, which shows that she's maintaining the tension in her split. Here's an example (http://bleacherreport.com/gallery/US%20Figure%20Skating%20Championships%20Day%20Two? d=2010-01-16#page/30) of a lasso lift where you can see some of the features of the girl's position that I just pointed out. I had a hard time finding a good picture - the angle that I wanted is apparently not a particularly photogenic one! - but you can see the length in the neck; the width across the sternum (L shoulder is turned back to counteract the tendency to drop the free side in a one-armed lasso); and that the hips are behind the core.
- And here's an example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQPpOC1nnXM) of a boy who tilts his head back on a Lutz lift, resulting in misalignment. :rofl: [To be fair to Brubaker, he does not make this mistake on "real" lifts (http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=634&authuser=0&tbm=isch&tbnid=89EtSvBBlp65RM:&imgrefurl=http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/othersports/2008311998_pairs26.html&docid=BY5y9A8KCY9w_M&imgurl=http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2008/10/25/2008311694.jpg&w=296&h=519&ei=e5lsT_zfMYTLtgfnxvCyBg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=609&sig=103619012089980814012&page=1&tbnh=120&tbnw=68&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:20,s:0&tx=25&ty=48).]
- And just for fun, here's an example (http://www.frogsonice.com/foi/gallery/lift.html) of an awful lift position on the boy's part: his pelvis is tilted forward, which means he's going to be over his toes on his mohawks; to compensate, he has a overarched*/swayed back; his shoulders are too high and it looks like his shoulders are behind his ears; there's a slight bend in his elbow - locked-ish elbows add quite a bit of stability to the lift and reduce the work load of the upper body; his head is tilted back and he's looking at his partner instead of straight-ahead; and worst of all, you can see that his partner's weight is behind him instead of over him. Clearly, this is a lift that's "getting away" from him.
* When I first typed "overarched," I typo'd it as "overached." While not what I intended to say, it is likely true! :lol:

MysticHaze
03-23-2012, 05:24 PM
Wow, U.S Pairs just got more exciting! Bring on the Dramaaaahhhz.

stjeaskategym
03-23-2012, 05:57 PM
I had always heard Kiri wasn't really interested in pairs and loved her singles, so this will be intriguing. She's also been somewhat plagued by injuries, so seeing her balance this with singles will also be interesting. She's a really lovely skater though. For once, I just want the guy to talk about how doing all the elements is easy because he has great strength and technique rather than mention that the girl has a petite frame. :lol:

I know it won't ever happen, but in an ideal skating world, kids would get exposed to pairs as young children, so that at 15 or 16, they aren't just thrown into it, expected to compete at the Sr level immediately, and forced to rush through all the fundamentals of pair skating. Oh well.

Skittl1321
03-23-2012, 06:13 PM
Upper body strength is definitely not the only factor, as the main strength needed for a lift - that it, a lift done with proper technique - is actually in the lower body. ;)

Very interesting (whole post)- but this especially.

LilJen
03-23-2012, 06:18 PM
[QUOTE=5Ali3;3516501]
Here's an example (http://bleacherreport.com/gallery/US%20Figure%20Skating%20Championships%20Day%20Two? d=2010-01-16#page/30) of a lasso lift where you can see some of the features of the girl's position that I just pointed out. I had a hard time finding a good picture - the angle that I wanted is apparently not a particularly photogenic one! - but you can see the length in the neck; the width across the sternum (L shoulder is turned back to counteract the tendency to drop the free side in a one-armed lasso); and that the hips are behind the core.

:cheer: Castile/Okolski :cheer: such a beautiful pair to watch.

2sk8
03-23-2012, 06:50 PM
I know it won't ever happen, but in an ideal skating world, kids would get exposed to pairs as young children, so that at 15 or 16, they aren't just thrown into it, expected to compete at the Sr level immediately, and forced to rush through all the fundamentals of pair skating. Oh well.

Very true, but - in this case - Kiri certainly could have chosen to start at Junior with an age-eligible guy, so all involved must feel she is ready to start at Senior.

Jenna
03-23-2012, 06:51 PM
Oooh, I am happy for Kiri. I think she could really excel in pairs.

Is Christine Mozer still competing? She's been riddled with injury and illness for years. It would be sad to see her go out like that. :(

pinky166
03-23-2012, 07:51 PM
Excited for Kiri! I think she's going to be a total :rockstar: in pairs, she has the energy and diva attitude for it.

aka_gerbil
03-23-2012, 09:04 PM
:cheer: Castile/Okolski :cheer: such a beautiful pair to watch.

I still miss them. Badly. So very badly...

LilJen
03-23-2012, 09:05 PM
I still miss them. Badly. So very badly...

Me too. And the past few years, riddled with injuries, didn't help. I really wanted Ben to pair up with Caitlin Y. but oh well. I think she and Reagan will be good.