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View Full Version : Status of US Pairs This Season



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jaci
12-05-2011, 03:33 PM
I wonder what would happen if people affiliated in some way with these pair teams stopped posting negativity in this thread? :P Bad karma anyone?

I agree with you Sylvia, some of the comments about teams choking or self-destructing are just inapropriate and it's evident that those posting them are affiliated in some way or another. I know it's a thread where people should feel like they can post there opinions but sometimes it seems like some people's motivation is to tear down athletes. I think you best described it with one word! KARMA! People. I think all the Junior Pairs teams that made it to Nationals are worthy to be there and Good Luck to everyone!

Pulaski73
12-05-2011, 03:49 PM
Junior is development and the coach of some of the colorado teams clearly has played it safe with Simpson/Blackmer and loaded the other teams with difficulty as Simpson/Blackmer have great connection, but did not even attempt Side by Side Triple jumps nor do they have strong pair elements, watching the JGP videos it is clear that the Simpson girl has grown, way to tall for that boy long term and Blackmer is clearly a weak lifter, so they are going to do very well in Junior, but Senior they will clearly not be a strong Senior Team

Based on what? I believe all of the junior teams in Latvia put a lift down. Not a single Poland team collapsed on a lift. They are clearly a much more strategic team not throwing in everything plus the kitchen sink for their first season together. I am very excited about their success with a low difficulty. I wouldn't call any of the junior pair boys "weak" however. Most of them are still developing their technical skills. Look how far Brubaker and Coughlin have come sense they were junior... Give the kid a break. They're doing great at junior and I'd put my money on them whenever they decide to go Senior.

chachacha
12-05-2011, 04:04 PM
Based on what? I believe all of the junior teams in Latvia put a lift down. Not a single Poland team collapsed on a lift. They are clearly a much more strategic team not throwing in everything plus the kitchen sink for their first season together. I am very excited about their success with a low difficulty. I wouldn't call any of the junior pair boys "weak" however. Most of them are still developing their technical skills. Look how far Brubaker and Coughlin have come sense they were junior... Give the kid a break. They're doing great at junior and I'd put my money on them whenever they decide to go Senior.

If you are related to Blackmer than you really should not read these posts if you will not be able to handle the items that are posted. Simpson/Blackmer are and will do great this season! Clearly they have a Junior Program and have been able to be consistent. I have always been a fan of Simpson. No one is putting Blackmer down. He has done very well. Simply stating that you made a comment that teams choke and self-destruct and it is clear that some teams have more difficult elements than others and to put other teams down for not delivering a clean program when alot of that is the coaches fault if they allow elements that someone can't do in a program or have consistently not have had a good result but continue to keep it in a program, well than don't beat up the teams for it. No need to personalize anything ;) I should have known you are from the Colorado Camp. There are about 6 Junior Teams that have the potential to do well. You clearly attack other teams by saying things like teams self-destructing. Personally, I want to see the California team in the top 3 and feel that Todd Sands and Jenni have a well rounded Junior Team.

jaci
12-05-2011, 04:08 PM
How about those Senior Pairs! LOL I think the topic of Junior Pairs needs to move on to Senior!!! Or anyone have any comments on any up and coming Novice Teams? Very excited about Jason Pacini and Caitlyn Fields!

5Ali3
12-06-2011, 12:30 AM
I believe all of the junior teams in Latvia put a lift down. Not a single Poland team collapsed on a lift.

On a very general level, I wish that teams would not be criticized for putting lifts down - ever, regardless of the circumstances. The only thing that happens when a lift is put down is that a team loses the points for the lift. The list of things that happen when a lift that should be put down isn't put down is endless, but includes head injuries/concussions and broken bones; more than one team has suffered career-ending or career-changing injuries as the result of lifts that should have been put down.

Pair boys will occasionally tease each other about putting down a lift, but there is a general agreement among pair skaters and pair coaches to NEVER question or judge a boy's decision to put a lift down. Coaches will review what went wrong with the team and may offer suggestions for how the lift might have stayed up, but not criticize the decision. There's a culture of safety in pairs and the number one priority of male pair skaters is to protect their partner. If a boy makes a split second decision that a lift needs to come down, he's truly the only one who is in a position to make that decision at that moment in time.

(Of course, many lift accidents occur on lifts in which there wasn't time to put the lift down. We've almost lost two American pair skaters to closed head injuries that occurred on lifts, and in both cases there wasn't an opportunity to put the lift down.)

outsideedge22
12-06-2011, 01:35 AM
I totally agree with you! Kudos to Duarte/Grafton for having a difficult program, if they played it safe they would have been up there as they have the best skating skills and connection than any of the US Junior Teams and that is because of the length of time they have together. Junior is development and the coach of some of the colorado teams clearly has played it safe with Simpson/Blackmer and loaded the other teams with difficulty as Simpson/Blackmer have great connection, but did not even attempt Side by Side Triple jumps nor do they have strong pair elements, watching the JGP videos it is clear that the Simpson girl has grown, way to tall for that boy long term and Blackmer is clearly a weak lifter, so they are going to do very well in Junior, but Senior they will clearly not be a strong Senior Team, but again Junior is about developing, so They should continue to do well this season as they have Junior level elements. They skate clean and consistent but they have a safe program. So to say that the other teams self destruct or choke is not really a fair statement when there coach is clearly setting up those other teams for failure! Hopefully some of those teams will make some adjustments as they have the potential to do very well at Nationals if the coach does there job and pulls some of the more difficult Side by Side Jumps that they clearly do not need. Aaron/Settlage actually have great connection and were impacted on the level of difficulty they had with there jumps and Throws. However, IMO there there are about 6 teams at any given day can be on top of that podium at Nationals. I'm really excited about the new team Pfund/Reiss, they are a new team, but with some more time, they will be a very strong team and have plenty of time on the JGP Circuit. Some of those Colorado Teams need to make some difficult decisions and get out of Colorado. It is clear that they could be so much better if they were not just a number.

Not quite sure you are accurately looking at the level of difficulty. If you break it done by short and free then this is it in a nutshell:

Short: All the top teams do a throw triple (some/most don't land it). It is clear who lands it and who does not. The lifts are seperated by 1 point max. That is it other than getting levels.

Free: Not sure if all the teams do two throw triples, but I know that S/B do and land them. I have not seen another team land two triples in a program. I do agree that the level of difficultly in the free is in the SBS jumps, but I haven't seen a team land one at all. What is the point of attempting if you can't land them. With this said, the scores for free range from around 92 to 72. What good is doing jumps you can't land and scoring a program that puts you out of contention?

I think the most accurate thing said is that Junior is for development. I would hope that as many of these teams are new that they can add tougher elements as they move on. As for D/G, they have been together for years. However, with D/F, S/B, and even A/S, these are mostly new teams (a little over a year for A/S, also new are P/R and others. Perhaps the expectations are a little high at this point?

Finally, not sure about the CO teams looking elsewhere. Last time I checked there were 11 pairs spots for the JGP series with 7 of them taken by CO teams, with one in the final. Looks like she politics better than the other coaches, IMHO. Again, just opinions....

johndockley92
12-06-2011, 06:05 AM
Based on what? I believe all of the junior teams in Latvia put a lift down. Not a single Poland team collapsed on a lift.

^^ Yeah this isn't true btw. D/G & D/F both put down lifts though.


I do think some criticism should be given for putting down a lift. I know they're keeping their partner's safe, but if the lift could be unsafe, it shouldn't be in the program. Period.

A good pair boy will put up and hold up any bad lift, just as a good pair girl will land a bad throw.

BittyBug
12-06-2011, 10:06 AM
I know they're keeping their partner's safe, but if the lift could be unsafe, it shouldn't be in the program. Period.I appreciate the intention of your comment - that teams shouldn't be recklessly aggressive on lifts - but any lift, even the most basic one, can be unsafe. Think about it - the girl is hoisted over the guy's head 7 or 8 feet in the air and all of their weight is resting on two 12" curved blades that are 7 or 8 mm thick. Even the best skater can get caught in a rut, catch a toe pick, lose an edge, or have a muscle spasm that would cause him to lose his balance. There is nothing in skating that is 100% guaranteed safe, and in fact it's ridiculous how many injuries happen on the most basic moves. Even the best skaters in the world fall on "nothing."

Yazmeen
12-06-2011, 05:38 PM
No need to personalize anything ;) I should have known you are from the Colorado Camp. There are about 6 Junior Teams that have the potential to do well. You clearly attack other teams by saying things like teams self-destructing.

Um, I wouldn't exactly pigeonhole Pulaski73 into the "Colorado Camp" considering he/she has also expressed the opinion that distinctly non-Colorado teams like Goldberg/Dolkiewicz from New Jersey demonstrated worthiness of getting a JGP. As you said, no need to take this to personal attacks.

johndockley92
12-07-2011, 01:22 AM
I appreciate the intention of your comment - that teams shouldn't be recklessly aggressive on lifts - but any lift, even the most basic one, can be unsafe. Think about it - the girl is hoisted over the guy's head 7 or 8 feet in the air and all of their weight is resting on two 12" curved blades that are 7 or 8 mm thick. Even the best skater can get caught in a rut, catch a toe pick, lose an edge, or have a muscle spasm that would cause him to lose his balance. There is nothing in skating that is 100% guaranteed safe, and in fact it's ridiculous how many injuries happen on the most basic moves. Even the best skaters in the world fall on "nothing."


While this is true, the lifts go down more often than they should. Tripping off a toe pick shouldn't happen because you shouldn't be pushing off your toes in a lift :P

Sylvia
12-07-2011, 04:06 PM
The following was posted in another thread and relevant to this one:

I am curious, IF and I realize it is a big IF, Donlan and Speroff landed their sbs triple jumps and DA in the short program and Freeskate where do you think they might place? Do they have a chance at a medal? If they were to land their jumps, are the rest of their pair skills on a par with the top teams? I think that internationally they might do very well, just wondering if they were to skate clean what their chances at placing high enough for a Senior GP would be.
I think the general fan consensus always has been that D/S could place quite well if they are credited with landing rotated 2A and/or 3T. But I think there may be too much pressure on them about landing their sbs jumps, which is likely why they did intentional sbs 1A and 2T at the Middle Atlantics club comp. in September and at Easterns in November. I really enjoy watching their pair skills and classical programs and trust that their coaches are doing all they can to help them resolve their jump issues. I believe top 6 is a reasonable goal at Nationals if they are able to skate up to their potential (Vise/Baldwin were 6th at 2011 Nationals and were assigned to Skate America as a host pick), but I hope D/S are focusing less on Nationals results/placement/future international assignments and more on continued progress in their skating overall.

Subway
12-07-2011, 04:31 PM
Simpson/Blackmer do have simpler elements than a few other juniors but the elements they do are done correctly by him. Very few pairs men get into their knees properly for a twist lift or other type of lift. It's an excellent foundation for them when they enhance difficulty. I was impressed with their technique. He continues gliding when he throws. Lifts are about technique and balance more than strength.

Pulaski73
12-08-2011, 12:45 AM
If you are related to Blackmer than you really should not read these posts if you will not be able to handle the items that are posted. Simpson/Blackmer are and will do great this season! Clearly they have a Junior Program and have been able to be consistent. I have always been a fan of Simpson. No one is putting Blackmer down. He has done very well. Simply stating that you made a comment that teams choke and self-destruct and it is clear that some teams have more difficult elements than others and to put other teams down for not delivering a clean program when alot of that is the coaches fault if they allow elements that someone can't do in a program or have consistently not have had a good result but continue to keep it in a program, well than don't beat up the teams for it. No need to personalize anything ;) I should have known you are from the Colorado Camp. There are about 6 Junior Teams that have the potential to do well. You clearly attack other teams by saying things like teams self-destructing. Personally, I want to see the California team in the top 3 and feel that Todd Sands and Jenni have a well rounded Junior Team.

You are mistaken. I actually am very affectionate towards D/G I love their skating and as others agree, their components I believe are unmatched. I was just correcting you as you seem to think Blackmer is a weak lifter where he clearly is not. The team attempts simpler elements but they do them well which is bringing them success. That being said, I am also an avid supporter of Goldberg/Dolkiewicz because I think they have so much potential. I am not biased towards anyone as none of them have ANY relation to me. I am just a fan of pair skating. That being said, Go Simpson/Blackmer! Can't wait to see them from my computer this week!!

chachacha
12-08-2011, 04:46 AM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
You are mistaken. I actually am very affectionate towards D/G I love their skating and as others agree, their components I believe are unmatched. I was just correcting you as you seem to think Blackmer is a weak lifter where he clearly is not. The team attempts simpler elements but they do them well which is bringing them success. That being said, I am also an avid supporter of Goldberg/Dolkiewicz because I think they have so much potential. I am not biased towards anyone as none of them have ANY relation to me. I am just a fan of pair skating. That being said, Go Simpson/Blackmer! Can't wait to see them from my computer this week!!

johndockley92
12-09-2011, 05:50 PM
Wow! An American team on the podium at the Junior Grand Prix Final. This is encouraging :)