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peibeck
10-27-2011, 09:36 PM
Caitlin is 5'2" and Rockne is 5'9".

I know this may be what his USFS bio says, but I am sure Rockne is not 5'9". I stood right next to the guy at Nationals in Cleveland, and I was taller than he is, and I am 5'8". I doubt he's had a growth spurt since then.

olympic
10-27-2011, 11:20 PM
I was hoping for Yankowskas and Leftheris.

Is this off the table? :(

chipso1
10-27-2011, 11:28 PM
That's about where I am. Compared to Keauna and Caydee, Mary Beth has not made the jump to high level pairs skating as quickly as they did. Compared to Caydee, who showed up at Nationals the first year taking second and finishing 9th at the W.C. that year, or Keauna, who looked more senior competing as a junior, MBM isn't as fast to come up to speed and skate like an elite senior. But, plenty of other skaters have matured (skating-wise) over time, and I hope she's one of them.

You do realize that Keauna skated pairs long before she teamed with Rockne, and that 2009 was not Caydee's pairs debut either, right? Just so we're all on the same page. Mary Beth's situation is not at all comparable to theirs.

julieann
10-27-2011, 11:38 PM
You do realize that Keauna skated pairs long before she teamed with Rockne, and that 2009 was not Caydee's pairs debut either, right? Just so we're all on the same page. Mary Beth's situation is not at all comparable to theirs.

Didn't Keauna only compete two seasons with Burgess as a novice and jr and Caitlin only one with Cohen as a novice? Neither one are very old.

Sylvia
10-28-2011, 12:00 AM
I think the point is that both Yankowskas and McLaughlin had 2 full seasons of skating pairs at the lower levels before they started competing internationally.

Yankowskas/Cohen skated 2 seasons together - they won the Intermediate Pairs silver medal in the 2004-05 season and then won Novice silver at 2006 Nationals.

McLaughlin debuted at "big" Nationals at the age of 11 when she won the 2005 U.S. Novice Pairs medal with Ethan Burgess and they won the Junior pewter medal the following season before splitting.

Mayra
10-28-2011, 12:02 AM
You do realize that Keauna skated pairs long before she teamed with Rockne, and that 2009 was not Caydee's pairs debut either, right? Just so we're all on the same page. Mary Beth's situation is not at all comparable to theirs.

Even if it were, the comparisons don't really mean much. Keauna peaked at age 16 and Caydee Denney only this season IMO started showing any kind of improvement as a pairs skater from her debut 2 years ago. :eek: They are NOT the gold standard for which MBM should be comparing her progress to. Slow and steady sometimes really does win the race. IMO

julieann
10-28-2011, 12:41 AM
You do realize that Keauna skated pairs long before she teamed with Rockne, and that 2009 was not Caydee's pairs debut either, right? Just so we're all on the same page. Mary Beth's situation is not at all comparable to theirs.


Didn't Keauna only compete two seasons with Burgess as a novice and jr and Caitlin only one with Cohen as a novice? Neither one are very old.


McLaughlin debuted at "big" Nationals at the age of 11 when she won the 2005 U.S. Novice Pairs medal with Ethan Burgess and they won the Junior pewter medal the following season before splitting.

I guess people have different ideas of what competing for a "long time" is; I certainly don't think 2 years counts. Especially when the two year experience is only at the novice and/or junior level. I also don't think a "big" debut is at the US Novice Pairs when you are 11. I think Keauna and Rockne did great as seniors but didn't come close to reaching their potential. I don't think Y/C did either for that matter.

It will be nice to see how long Brubaker will stay in the sport. I would love to see them in 2018.

johndockley92
10-28-2011, 02:36 AM
Isn't Leftheris a little out of the competitive loop and rather old to be with either Caitlin or Keauna? Besides Keauna gave up the best partner she would have had. If she only wanted a year off from skating I think she would have said so and not quit completely.

I'm just saying the tryout happened, not whether or not it was a good idea O.o

chipso1
10-28-2011, 04:25 AM
I guess people have different ideas of what competing for a "long time" is; I certainly don't think 2 years counts. Especially when the two year experience is only at the novice and/or junior level. I also don't think a "big" debut is at the US Novice Pairs when you are 11. I think Keauna and Rockne did great as seniors but didn't come close to reaching their potential. I don't think Y/C did either for that matter.

When Keauna competed at her first senior Nationals (in 2008), she was 14 years old but already had 4 years of pairs skating under her belt. When Mary Beth competed at her first senior Nationals (in 2011), she was 15 years old and had only been skating pairs for 5 months.

Also, FWIW, Mary Beth's only other appearance at Nationals was in 2009 when she won the novice silver medal. Going from 2nd in novice ladies to 4th in senior pairs in a span of 2 years is pretty amazing, IMO. Like I said earlier, she just needs more time...she has every quality that you would want in a pairs skater, including fearlessness.

barbk
10-28-2011, 04:49 AM
Even if it were, the comparisons don't really mean much. Keauna peaked at age 16 and Caydee Denney only this season IMO started showing any kind of improvement as a pairs skater from her debut 2 years ago. :eek: They are NOT the gold standard for which MBM should be comparing her progress to. Slow and steady sometimes really does win the race. IMO

I hope that Mary Beth starts landing her jumps consistently, just as I hope that all the American pairs start landing their jumps consistently. But even give what we saw in the SP -- which was way, way, way better than what we saw in the LP -- I find it hard to believe that a clean Marley/Brubaker would come even into the top five against other clean US pairs. She looks immature, and I mean that in a pairs skating sense, not in terms of her youthful appearance. (And I'm quite glad she didn't fall into the makeup case as both Keauna and Caydee did at that age.) If she weren't paired with Rockne, I doubt she'd garner much attention at all at this point, and with a younger partner might even be earning her chops on the JGP circuit, which seems to have quite a few skaters at about her skill level.


she has every quality that you would want in a pairs skater, including fearlessness.

Seriously? I like my female pairs skaters to have great unison and a performance quality that demands attention, along with fabulous lift positions and a catlike ability to land jumps. Does MBM possess any of these at the moment?

5Ali3
10-28-2011, 04:54 AM
Caydee Denney only this season IMO started showing any kind of improvement as a pairs skater from her debut 2 years ago.

Denney and Barrett trained for a year before splitting initially, so I would say that she had closer to three years of pairs - however, her technique in her initial year of pairs was impressive. I recall seeing Denney and Barrett skate at Indy Challenge their first year together (2006? 2007? 2006 for what would have been the 2007 competitive season?). They already had a triple twist, decent lifts, and two throw triples... both of which were Lutzes. (They only got credit for one, because one can't repeat the same exact throw, but it's the only time that I've seen a team do that, so it was memorable. :confused: )

reese
10-28-2011, 05:01 AM
Denney and Barrett trained for a year before splitting initially, so I would say that she had closer to three years of pairs - however, her technique in her initial year of pairs was impressive. I recall seeing Denney and Barrett skate at Indy Challenge their first year together (2006? 2007? 2006 for what would have been the 2007 competitive season?). They already had a triple twist, decent lifts, and two throw triples... both of which were Lutzes. (They only got credit for one, because one can't repeat the same exact throw, but it's the only time that I've seen a team do that, so it was memorable. :confused: )

I think D/B only initially trained together for 5 mos before Caydee dumped him and moved to CO Springs to train singles.

Mayra
10-28-2011, 05:31 AM
I hope that Mary Beth starts landing her jumps consistently, just as I hope that all the American pairs start landing their jumps consistently. But even give what we saw in the SP -- which was way, way, way better than what we saw in the LP -- I find it hard to believe that a clean Marley/Brubaker would come even into the top five against other clean US pairs. She looks immature, and I mean that in a paris skating sense, not in terms of her youthful appearance. (And I'm quite glad she didn't fall into the makeup case as both Keauna and Caydee did at that age.) If she weren't paired with Rockne, I doubt she'd garner much attention at all at this point, and with a younger partner might even be earning her chops on the JGP circuit, which seems to have quite a few skaters at about her skill level.
If you think of pairings as having to come together really quickly to be viable, then the above is certainly a problem, but I think this team is thinking in the long term towards Sochi and I can see this team being in a completely different place even 2 years from now. Both MBM and Rockne teamed up knowing they had a steep learning curve to overcome and this team is at where they should be IMO.


Seriously? I like my female pairs skaters to have great unison and a performance quality that demands attention, along with fabulous lift positions and a catlike ability to land jumps. Does MBM possess any of these at the moment?

I don't think MBM excels at any individual one, however, I think she has a healthy does of each to consider her to have great potential as a pairs skater. Name me an American lady that has all these qualities? ....Crickets...Yeah none. Denney has a catlike ability to land jumps but beyond that? :yikes: For me that isn't enough to make me a fan. YMMV ;)

To be fair, beyond Savchenko and Volosozhar there aren't many in the WORLD who meet this criteria. I consider both to be at their skating peak and each is well into their 20's. Am I saying MBM is the 2nd coming of each? No, what I'm saying is that at 16 she has A LOT of room to improve and plenty of time in which to do it in. Comparing her to where Caydee and Keauna were at in their skating at 16 is almost irrelevant considering where each is at NOW and when you take into account that skaters develop at a different pace. A slow and steady progression is possible and totally ok. IMO

zippy
10-28-2011, 05:52 AM
I guess people have different ideas of what competing for a "long time" is; I certainly don't think 2 years counts. Especially when the two year experience is only at the novice and/or junior level. I also don't think a "big" debut is at the US Novice Pairs when you are 11.

Sorry, but this is just :rolleyes:. You make it sound like Novice and Junior Nationals is on the same level as some kindergarten play or something. There's no reason to belittle what Keauna accomplished prior to teaming up with Rockne, and what role that experience had in her quick success in their partnership. Nationals is no joke at any level, and the Novice/Junior levels are important for skaters' development. This might be especially true in pairs, where skaters can spend time getting the less risky double twists, throws and side by side jumps down while safely developing the lifts and also learning their skills in unison, tracking, speed/flow, handling competition nerves, etc. Keauna was able to compete 3 years at the lower levels before hitting senior nationals, and her rise was considered to be abnormally fast, even meteoric. Mary Beth had to go from 0 to 60 - she was basically expected to look like a polished senior pairs lady right off the bat because of who she's skating with. I've read she's still working on developing her muscles for pairs - that in itself takes time.


But even give what we saw in the SP -- which was way, way, way better than what we saw in the LP -- I find it hard to believe that a clean Marley/Brubaker would come even into the top five against other clean US pairs.

Huh? They already have placed in the top five at nationals, and that's not skating clean. Who are these mystery pairs that are going to knock them out of the top 5?

barbk
10-28-2011, 06:29 AM
Huh? They already have placed in the top five at nationals, and that's not skating clean. Who are these mystery pairs that are going to knock them out of the top 5?

I said that if everyone skated clean, I wouldn't expect M/B to be in the top five. With no falls and landed SBS jumps, I'd expect E/L, D/B, C/S, D/S, S/B at least to all come in ahead of M/B.

I'll be thrilled if she develops some fabulous pairs skills and presence on the ice. I certainly was surprised by Shen and Zhao, who managed to go years with nothing much but good jumps and good throw landings, but who eventually developed into a gorgeous pairs team.

Nothing against her -- and I guess we'd all agree that she's got a lot of room to grow.