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View Full Version : Johnny Weir v. former Olympic Gymnast, Peter Vidmar



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Sparks
05-11-2011, 01:44 AM
^^^ What a convoluted argument. :rolleyes:

Allen
05-11-2011, 02:08 AM
I'm sorry, religious views or not, supporting discrimination is not okay. That's what Vidmar is doing. If I was a potential Olympic athlete, I wouldn't want someone who had been present at anti-marriage equality rallies representing me. Vidmar resigned of his own accord, so I'm over the argument that he was "railroaded" in any way :violin:

bek
05-11-2011, 02:49 AM
I'm sorry, religious views or not, supporting discrimination is not okay. That's what Vidmar is doing. If I was a potential Olympic athlete, I wouldn't want someone who had been present at anti-marriage equality rallies representing me. Vidmar resigned of his own accord, so I'm over the argument that he was "railroaded" in any way :violin:

Sounds railroaded to me. Look I'm a fairly conservative Catholic, and I'm never going to go against my Church's beliefs on the subject. But the way I see it currently there are tons of marriages going on that my Church wouldn't regard as valid that are perfectly legal in the US. I'm not picketing or protesting those marriages, so it feels hypocritcal to protest gay marriages. I think the rambatent divorce is doing far more to destroy the institution of marriage then gay marriage is. This being said People are entitled to different views than mine, live their lives, have rights etc.

But here's the thing I feel like the other side needs to accept the fact that many ancient religions DO prohibit these types of things. And that they have fairly clearly prohibited it. Now people are totally entitled to feel our religions are wrong etc. But when your getting into religions/people's personal relationships with God, your getting into somethng deeply personal. And for some of they REALLY feel their religion prohbits something, they feel their religion prohibits, and that's kind of the final say.

It feels like some of you guys not only want us to be like okay yes gay marriage should be allowed, but also to literally change our religions teachings. I can't help wonder what's next. I just feel this type of thing is going to only further strengthen the divide between the religions/non religious in this country.

And once again I'd ask what who people are sleeping with has anything to do with the Olympics anyways. I highly doubt you'll find an Olympic chief who agrees with everything, everyone on the team is doing. all of their beliefs/actions. As long as that chief is willing to treat everyone with respect, equally (once again marriage not an Olympic sport). I'm not sure the issue. In fact I always thought part of the OLympics was to get people with diverse/beliefs to come together for a common cause.

I mean in the end that's the thing. Tolerance isn't agreeing with everything everyone does. It will never happen. Tolerance though is willing to treat everyone with kindness/respect and the way you'd want to be treated.

Prancer
05-11-2011, 03:01 AM
Tolerance though is willing to treat everyone with kindness/respect and the way you'd want to be treated.

Which is a great argument for supporting gay marriage.

Unless, of course, you would just accept it if the predominant religion decreed that Catholics couldn't marry.

mag
05-11-2011, 03:04 AM
...I mean in the end that's the thing. Tolerance isn't agreeing with everything everyone does. It will never happen. Tolerance though is willing to treat everyone with kindness/respect and the way you'd want to be treated.

And there is the rub. By not allowing gay marriage you are not treating people the way you would like to be treated. Say, for the sake of argument, we said that people married in the Catholic church are no longer considered married for the purposes of spousal benefits etc. How would you feel about that? Would you be okay with giving up all those benefits you come to expect and enjoy just because a segment of the population arbitrarily decided you cannot be married? Don't worry, it is not that they don't like Catholics, and they don't really mind what you do behind closed doors, in fact, they have many Catholic friends. They just don't feel comfortable with you being married.

Sparks
05-11-2011, 03:08 AM
It feels like some of you guys not only want us to be like okay yes gay marriage should be allowed, but also to literally change our religions teachings. I can't help wonder what's next. I just feel this type of thing is going to only further strengthen the divide between the religions/non religious in this country.
No. Literally? You are not being asked to change your religious beliefs. And you should not ask anyone to change theirs. You don't believe in gay marriage, then don't have a gay marriage. That simple. Marriage b/n 2 consenting adults doesn't hurt you. Leave it alone.

bek
05-11-2011, 03:12 AM
Which is a great argument for supporting gay marriage.

Unless, of course, you would just accept it if the predominant religion decreed that Catholics couldn't marry.

Thats why I'm inclined to let gay marriage happen civally and I'm not really into the protesting. I'm inclined to let the State define marriage the way it wants to define it. And have my Church define marriage the way it defines marriage. But I'm just not so convinced this will stop at States define marriage one way, Churches/another. Not convinced at all.


No. Literally? You are not being asked to change your religious beliefs. And you should not ask anyone to change theirs. You don't believe in gay marriage, then don't have a gay marriage. That simple. Marriage b/n 2 consenting adults doesn't hurt you. Leave it alone.

Where did I say I was asking anyone to change theirs. But it absolutely feels that people are asking some people to change their opinions. If Vidmar said I'm personally opposed to gay marriage, but okay with the state defining civil unions/marriage the way it wants. I'm not convinced everyone will be okay with that. I'm quite convinced there would be some who would still have issues with Vidmar having personal issues.

Reading some of the posts here it goes quite beyond "why can't people just let us live our lives the way we want" and more into people are crazy for just not agreeing.

Prancer
05-11-2011, 03:14 AM
Thats why I'm inclined to let gay marriage happen civally and I'm not really into the protesting. I'm inclined to let the State define marriage the way it wants to define it. And have my Church define marriage the way it defines marriage. But I'm just not so convinced this will stop at States define marriage one way, Churches/another. Not convinced at all.

I don't know why not. Churches now refuse to marry divorced people, interracial couples, interfaith couples, people who don't belong to their parishes, etc. They have that right as private entities. Why would gay marriage be any different?

bek
05-11-2011, 03:25 AM
I don't know why not. Churches now refuse to marry divorced people, interracial couples, interfaith couples, people who don't belong to their parishes, etc. They have that right as private entities. Why would gay marriage be any different?

I just fair it might not be that society is getting in general to politically correct. And really the main thing is traditional views/being marginilized.

I was going to ask whats next a school teacher getting fired for stating their beliefs about marriage. But then I thought about it, and I thought how I probably really wouldn't want to get into that subject at all with my students, if I was a teacher, because I wouldn't want any students to feel excluded. I.e that I cared about them less, respected them less because of their sexual orientation etc. So I can see that point with Vidmar.

VALuvsMKwan
05-11-2011, 03:40 AM
I just fair it might not be that society is getting in general to politically correct. And really the main thing is traditional views/being marginilized.

I was going to ask whats next a school teacher getting fired for stating their beliefs about marriage. But then I thought about it, and I thought how I probably really wouldn't want to get into that subject at all with my students, if I was a teacher, because I wouldn't want any students to feel excluded. I.e that I cared about them less, respected them less because of their sexual orientation etc. So I can see that point with Vidmar.

Politically correct about denial of civil rights? :mad:

BTW, thanks for the last paragraph - but extend your reasoning involving students a little further, if you will. How do you think any 2 people wanting to be in a committed relationship feel when denied the same rights and privileges as 2 other people in the same situation, solely because of their being of the same gender and different orientation from the second couple?

Would the word "excluded" come to mind, at the very least? One hopes so. :rolleyes:

ETA: After reading Allen's response, just one more thing...

When any change to allow gay marriage affects, in a negative way, your choice on whom you want to, and are able to, marry, or anything else about how you personally are able to exercise your religious beliefs, come back to me and, to quote Julia Sugarbaker one more time, THEN we'll talk. :shuffle:

Allen
05-11-2011, 03:45 AM
It feels like some of you guys not only want us to be like okay yes gay marriage should be allowed, but also to literally change our religions teachings. I can't help wonder what's next. I just feel this type of thing is going to only further strengthen the divide between the religions/non religious in this country.

I honestly don't care about your religious teachings or how you feel about gay marriage. I just don't want anyone to infringe on the right for gay people to marry in this country. The people who believe that gay marriage is wrong based on religion, fine, but don't impede on the lives of others because your own religious belief. No one needs to change their beliefs, they just need to live and let others live. And before someone says it, allow gay people to marry is not impeding on anyone's religious beliefs. Why? Because what anyone does in their own personal life that doesn't harm anyone or isn't illegal is no one else's f*cking business.

Prancer
05-11-2011, 04:51 AM
I just fair it might not be that society is getting in general to politically correct. And really the main thing is traditional views/being marginilized.

You want to treat others as you want to be treated. You don't want to be marginalized for your traditional views. And yet, you are only inclined to think civil gay marriages should be allowed.

A school teacher might be fired for expressing views on marriage--if that teacher works in the public schools. A teacher at a private religious school would not be, if her beliefs about marriage follow the teachings of the school's religion.

Society might be getting more "politically correct," but why would you think that churches would suddenly have to be?

genevieve
05-11-2011, 04:53 AM
I was going to ask whats next a school teacher getting fired for stating their beliefs about marriage.

That's already happened (although he has gotten his job back)
http://www.ontopmag.com/article.aspx?id=6682&MediaType=1&Category=26

dinakt
05-11-2011, 05:21 AM
I honestly don't care about your religious teachings or how you feel about gay marriage. I just don't want anyone to infringe on the right for gay people to marry in this country. The people who believe that gay marriage is wrong based on religion, fine, but don't impede on the lives of others because your own religious belief. No one needs to change their beliefs, they just need to live and let others live. And before someone says it, allow gay people to marry is not impeding on anyone's religious beliefs. Why? Because what anyone does in their own personal life that doesn't harm anyone or isn't illegal is no one else's f*cking business.

Yes.
Eliminate discrimination, and then anybody in the privacy of their homes has a right to believe what they want to believe. But when the discrimination exists, an active (sic!) advocate for that discrimination should not represent a very diverse group of people. Some of those people are the ones whose rights he wants to squish.

bek
05-11-2011, 06:07 AM
Politically correct about denial of civil rights? :mad:

Your assuming that marriage is an ultimate right. I'm not sure marriage IS. Society still determines who can and cannot get married. Which is why in some states I'm allowed to marry my First Cousin, and some states, I am not. Why shouldn't Mormons and Muslims be allowed to have more than one wife/ How fair is it for Muslims who come into this country who have multiple wives, that only one wife gets recognized. Aren't the other wives being excluded?
To be quite frank if anything I think our country should make it more difficult for folks to get married-just in general.


Because what anyone does in their own personal life that doesn't harm anyone or isn't illegal is no one else's f*cking business.

Marriage isn't just as "personal thing" The institution of marriage involves a form of public acceptance.

You want to treat others as you want to be treated. You don't want to be marginalized for your traditional views. And yet, you are only inclined to think civil gay marriages should be allowed.


There are a lot of things I'm only "inclined to think" should be allowed. I wouldn't be a Christian if I didn't think there was a reason for the rules and that society would ultimately be better off if it was following them. Do I accept though that I live in a multipluralistic society and that its way better to accept other people and live in peace then to fight yes. And do I also understand that in the end you have to give people free will to make their own choices and not dictate them-yes that too. And do I also see how perhaps my religion has been in the past unkind and uncaring to those who differ from us and we need to be better about that yes.