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aftershocks
05-01-2011, 08:05 PM
I disagree with you bek. Regardless of age, Mirai and Caroline were still in juniors when a huge spotlight and huge expectations were placed on them. Nothing like that happened to any of the skaters you are mentioning. It was a different time, and none of them were as hugely hyped to the media when they were junior skaters, no matter how they might have been hyped and well known among skating insiders. A huge media spotlight like the one faced by Mirai and Caroline just didn't happen. Michelle was first mentioned on National television when she went against her coach's wishes and entered seniors. She was a young girl on a mission. She was mentioned, but she did not appear in an interview on the broadcast, nor was her performance that year broadcast. Nor was she cast as the next big thing who would fill the void left by a skating legend. If you carefully read my post, you will see that I'm not saying "poor Mirai, the victim." I'm saying I disagree with the way adults approached her development as a skater.

Everyone has their own interpretation. I felt the same way I'm posting now before Worlds ever happened. Again, I don't feel Rachael took anything away from Mirai, I think the judgement and decisionmaking by USFS, and by Rachael's team has not been the best. Whether Rachael was injured or not, I disagreed with her second place at Nationals, because I didn't feel she skated well there in the lp. Fine, Mirai will or will not have a successful career in skating going forward. Hopefully, Rachael can be proud of her accomplishments no matter what she decides to do going forward. I'm sorry for her that the decision for her to continue for this year ended on this note.

Hey but this is not a thread about Mirai having skated injured and in severe pain. And the circumstances would surely dictate how fans would have viewed that hypothetical, just as the specific circumstances are dictating the discussion in this thread.

victoriaheidi
05-01-2011, 08:14 PM
I just watched Rachael's program. I know I'm a fan and most people here aren't, but I actually feel sorry for her. She looked like she was crying when she finished and there were several moments (like coming out of the Ina) where she looked to be nursing her leg-she wasn't doing well.

I don't think people should be angry with her or her team. I think there was poor decision-making on many counts, but honestly, the USFS dropped the ball, too. Rachael has been injured all season. Especially with the extra month, I think athlete monitoring should have been a priority. There is way too much anger on this thread, and I do agree with WildRose-it's because it's Rachael and not a skater people prefer.

Rachael has a bright future ahead of her, and I hope that, in whatever she chooses to do, she looks upon her skating career as a memorable and generally successful time in her life. She is an Olympian, 3-time World Team Member, National Champion and World Junior Champion. She has won 7 medals on the Junior and Senior Grand Prix and has done great things as a skater. Whether or not she continues to skate, she already has an impressive list of credentials from her time as a skater.

bek
05-01-2011, 08:15 PM
I disagree with you bek. Regardless of age, Mirai and Caroline were still in juniors when a huge spotlight and huge expectations were placed on them. Nothing like that happened to any of the skaters you are mentioning. It was a different time, and none of them were as hugely hyped to the media when they were junior skaters, no matter how they might have been hyped and well known among skating insiders. A huge media spotlight like the one faced by Mirai and Caroline just didn't happen. Michelle was first mentioned on National television when she went against her coach's wishes and entered seniors. She was a young girl on a mission. She was mentioned, but she did not appear in an interview on the broadcast, nor was her performance that year broadcast. Nor was she cast as the next big thing who would fill the void left by a skating legend. If you carefully read my post, you will see that I'm not saying "poor Mirai, the victim." I'm saying I disagree with the way adults approached her development as a skater.

Once again Michelle was-13 when she WAS interviewed showed on the US broadcast. That was younger than Mirai was when Mirai won Nationals.

I remember full well Tara Lipinski winning the Olympic Festival, getting her performance shown on TV, and all of that-at a younger age than Mirai.

And as for Asada, not only was she shown on TV broadcasts in Japan at a very young age. But I remember Ms. Mao had a journalistic entourage following her from competition to competition at 13. (This may not be true, but she way bigger hype than Mirai or Caroline) At the very least Mao was HEAVILY hyped her last year of Juniors. She was even shown on freaking US News reports.


Was Mirai/Caroline hyped and was it to much sure. But were they were more hyped than other skaters of the past-no. And they certainly weren't more hyped than Asada.


Perhaps the issue is more that Mirai/Caroline believed their own press more.

Now yes I think perhaps the USFSA should stop the overhyping. But to blame just the hype is ridiculous. Other skaters have been overhyped as 13 year olds too and came out of it as World/Olympic champs.

IceAlisa
05-01-2011, 08:16 PM
Absolutely, victoriaheidi. Rachael is an incredibly accomplished young woman, including of course, her skating career. But she is not going out on a high note, in large part due to her/her team's unfortunate decisions.

skatemommy
05-01-2011, 08:24 PM
My anger is not at all with Rachael. My anger is at Tom Z/USFS potentially injuring this girl further in the name of next year's spots. Is a career ending injury worth it?

Triple Butz
05-01-2011, 08:30 PM
Oh come on, anyone who is criticizing Rachael for her decision just wanted Mirai to go instead, no matter what the reason. A lot of skaters skate hurt. She won her spot fair and square at US Nationals, and Mirai didn't deliver. As long as she can still skate, she should be able to go and shouldn't be criticized for it! Mirai may have went and had a total meltdown; no one really knows. I don't hate Mirai but I think this is completely ridiculous.

I wish people would stop stating that as though it's fact. The decision between 2nd and 3rd place was highly controversial and questionable at the time. The way some posters go on about how Flatt earned her spot so convincingly, you'd think she had gone out and nailed 7 triples instead of the crapfest that she actually put out. The fact that she had the highest PCS in the short program should have been a clue that the judging was off.

newbatgirl
05-01-2011, 08:30 PM
What one person sees in retrospect as "hype" could be seen by the skater and his/her team at the time as confidence in their future and support. It's not so easy for us as fans to define it as we watch from the sidelines.

Case in point, the Russian fed is "hyping" the I/K right now or as Judy Blumberg said, giving them "the push." If they medal at Olys in 2014, will it be seen as hype or support to rebuild Russian dance? It's all perspective.

aftershocks
05-01-2011, 09:27 PM
Okay, bek, we disagree. IMO, you seem to be interpreting that I am "blaming" the premature media hype for Mirai's meltdowns. No, not in a direct cause and effect ratio. Read my posts carefully, or not as you prefer. I don't care what age Michelle was when she came on the Nationals scene, nor Tara, et al, either -- MK and everyone you wish to cite vs Mirai are different people who came up in different times and under different circumstances. The way the USFS/media overhyped both Mirai and Caroline after they placed 1 and 2 at Junior Nationals was a mistake, especially without the adults having taken into consideration the need for also helping them work on improving their skating skills, their school work and their growth as human beings. Sometimes we expect too much of these young athletes. With a different approach taken (w/o rushing to reward Mirai with a National championship), she might be better prepared now. Or else, as in the case of Ann Patrice McDonough, who knows, a different approach might have allowed Mirai the opportunity to choose whether or not she truly wanted to continue to pursue skating.

Hopefully, Mirai has already made the choice that continuing is what she truly wants, and not b/c it is what she thinks is expected by others. We should take into consideration too all the changes in the sport that have taken place during the past 7 years. Not every skater should be expected to have the same focus and discipline exhibited by MK and Tara, or Mao and Yu Na. It wasn't a bed of roses for any of these skaters, no matter their success.

Rachael has a lot to be proud of (but that doesn't let the USFS adults off the hook). I also think Rachael is smart enough not to read this thread. She will do great things in her life. I think she peaked in her skating awhile ago, but kudos to her for following her dream. The point remains, she was not clearly better than Mirai at Nationals, as mentioned by others upthread. Therefore, as a result of what happened in Moscow, questions arise. I'm not saying that Rachael took anything from Mirai, just that the resulting situation has been unfortunate, and it resonates. The decisions already took place months ago and can't be changed. IMO, Rachael's placement at Worlds would not have been vastly different had she been 100%. There just would not have been this kind of fallout had she performed with the consistency she is known for, or if there had been more openness regarding her injury situation.

pinky166
05-01-2011, 09:45 PM
If it was Mirai who had skated injured & in severe pain, I'm pretty sure this would be a thread about how courageous she was to have gone out and done her best to compete and represent her country under extremely difficult circumstances. Instead, because it's Rachel, people are dumping all over her without even knowing all the facts. Mirai had her chance to qualify for Worlds and she blew it. Give it a rest.

I doubt it. Skating when injured is a stupid decision for anyone to make.

RD
05-01-2011, 09:49 PM
I don't think people should be angry with her or her team. I think there was poor decision-making on many counts, but honestly, the USFS dropped the ball, too. Rachael has been injured all season. Especially with the extra month, I think athlete monitoring should have been a priority. There is way too much anger on this thread, and I do agree with WildRose-it's because it's Rachael and not a skater people prefer.

There was poor decision-making, yes- but naturally Flatt is going to want to push through it and compete- I take it that all Olympic-level athletes function like this. So personally- I won't speak for the others on my side- I don't blame her. Instead, I feel that her team and USFS should have been monitoring her more closely, and in a way, they let her down by allowing her to skate in such poor condition.

And again, not the first time Team Flatt decided to press on with a competition while injured. Happened this season at the GPF, and I was wondering why she didn't WD from there, either...in any case it does not reflect well on her coach/team.

At the very least, Nagasu should have been told to get ready, to be on standby just in case. This is assuming that the injury was actually an issue for weeks and it just now got bad enough that they went to get it diagnosed last week. Otherwise, not much to do.

Anyway, what's done is done. But hopefully in the future, situations like this will be taken more seriously by those directly involved.

AliasJohnDoe
05-01-2011, 10:04 PM
I wish people would stop stating that as though it's fact. The decision between 2nd and 3rd place was highly controversial and questionable at the time. The way some posters go on about how Flatt earned her spot so convincingly, you'd think she had gone out and nailed 7 triples instead of the crapfest that she actually put out. The fact that she had the highest PCS in the short program should have been a clue that the judging was off.

Agreed.

I had no doubt Czisny should have finished 1st at US Nats. But Flatt got PCS she never would have gotten Internationally(The same with Bradley) and subsequently was held up. I personally felt Nagasu should have been 2nd, Zawadzski 3rd and Flatt 4th.

Flatt fans had no problem ripping Czisny a new a**hole for the last 2 years when Czisny was 11th and Flatt was 5th in 2009. Now that Czisny was 5th and Flatt was 12th, she can deal with getting a new a**hole too.

ETA: Please continue.

aftershocks
05-01-2011, 10:13 PM
...Perhaps the issue is more that Mirai/Caroline believed their own press more.
...

Yeah bek, that actually could be the case, and kinda what can happen when you push young athletes who are still developing as people and as skaters in front of a huge media spotlight, for the wrong reasons [and without attending to who they are as individuals, and helping them improve their skating skills, and preparing them for that kind of public scrutiny].



What one person sees in retrospect as "hype" could be seen by the skater and his/her team at the time as confidence in their future and support. It's not so easy for us as fans to define it as we watch from the sidelines.

Case in point, the Russian fed is "hyping" the I/K right now or as Judy Blumberg said, giving them "the push." If they medal at Olys in 2014, will it be seen as hype or support to rebuild Russian dance? It's all perspective.

Yeah, nice way of putting it newbatgirl. I don't disagree with your perspective. My sneaking suspicion though is that the USFS/ media hype of Caroline and Mirai was based more on feeding the media/ laying groundwork for future competitions to maintain fan interest than it was in actually supporting and believing in either Mirai or Caroline. If it was support and belief, couldn't they see the areas where each of them still needed development? Didn't they realize that kids that age are still developing as people and future success in the sport is not a given. Yes, there was nothing wrong with covering their success in juniors or with interviewing them if it had been done in a less intrusive -- "these girls are the next big thing to fill MK's skate boots" way. I cringed a bit at the way they were trotted out there and microphones were stuck in their faces, expecting them to be as focused and having a similar precocious wisdom as Michelle displayed at a young age.

Even Michelle went through the fire, but she was not prematurely awarded a National championship, nor was she trotted out to the television media as a junior, nor did she have the expectation of filling the skate boots of a recently departed legend. She had her family, a great coach, and her own expectations that fueled her. Different story, different circumstances.

genevieve
05-01-2011, 10:18 PM
Flatt fans had no problem ripping Czisny a new a**hole for the last 2 years when Czisny was 11th and Flatt was 5th in 2009. Now that Czisny was 5th and Flatt was 12th, she can deal with getting a new a**hole too.
:rolleyes: Bullshit. The idea that this is some sort of Tara/Michelle fan war redux is just laughable. Has there EVER been a wildly vocal contingent of Flatt ubers? Does Rachael even have ubers?

If I had to guess, I'd say a lot of the same people who were pissed at Czisny 2 years ago are now pissed at Flatt, and the common denominator is the inability of some fans to deal with the US no longer having dominence in the ladies field, and specifically the obsession with getting 3 Worlds spots back.

I think any US lady who underperforms internationally is going to be subjected to the same treatment until the almighty 3 spots have been secured again.

RD
05-01-2011, 10:22 PM
Flatt fans had no problem ripping Czisny a new a**hole for the last 2 years when Czisny was 11th and Flatt was 5th in 2009. Now that Czisny was 5th and Flatt was 12th, she can deal with getting a new a**hole too.


:lol: No way was the 2009 hatefest on Czisny confined to just Flatt fans. It was people's raw emotions coming out, especially since Olympic spots were on the line, and a few thought she shouldn't have even been on that world team in the first place. (Many of these fans have since seemed to have done a 180 on Alyssa and now seemingly love her to death...go figure)

Similar frustration is now being directed at Flatt- or rather, Team Flatt- especially given that she was competing injured. Even if she didn't say anything, I'm sure people would have looked at the GPF and speculated anyway.

WildRose
05-01-2011, 10:33 PM
I doubt it. Skating when injured is a stupid decision for anyone to make.

If that's the case then there are a lot of stupid skaters out there. Rachel isn't the only elite skater to have skated with an injury. As others have pointed out they do it all the time. It's unfortunate that she had to skate given the apparent severity of her injury, but we don't know enough about the circumstances to blame the poor kid for doing so.