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aftershocks
05-01-2011, 06:57 PM
sk9tingfan: read my previous post. IMHO, it is the USFS who need to grow up, become more mature and appropriate in their actions; get better organized, get someone to lead with vision who better understands the complexities of the sport in this day and age.

Yeah okay, here we are with the stories about how irresponsible Mirai is and how smart Rachael is -- maybe true. So they go for smart and/or politically correct over reportedly irresponsible and undisciplined. Let them look at their own actions toward skaters instead of shooting down the ones they feel are so unmanageable (but who are obviously better gifted). What is USFS's excuse for their mistakes and lack of vision, discipline and consistency?

skatesindreams
05-01-2011, 07:02 PM
I imagine it would be pretty expensive to have the first alternate in each discipline - plus their coaches - travel to Worlds with the World team, only to end up not competing 99% of the time. Who would pay for it?

Perhaps; but, better than the alternative - given what's happened in this competition and other recent ones.

sk9tingfan
05-01-2011, 07:06 PM
sk9tingfan: read my previous post. IMHO, it is the USFS who need to grow up, become more mature and appropriate in their actions; get better organized, get someone to lead with vision who better understands the complexities of the sport in this day and age.?



Aftershocks, I happen to agree with you with respect to USFSA totally. With respect to Rachael, I am not a fan and if she knew ahead of time that she was competing with the degree of injuries that she did have, then I think that she was selfish and irresponsible. Mirai is clearly a far more talented skater with incredible potential, but at times, she has clearly gotten in her own way. I think that her skating is exquisite.

bek
05-01-2011, 07:07 PM
sk9tingfan: read my previous post. IMHO, it is the USFS who need to grow up, become more mature and appropriate in their actions; get better organized, get someone to lead with vision who better understands the complexities of the sport in this day and age.

Yeah okay, here we are with the stories about how irresponsible Mirai is and how smart Rachael is -- maybe true. What is USFS's excuse for their mistakes and lack of vision, discipline and consistency?


I'm not thrilled with some of USFSA's decisions. But I'm sorry but Poor Mirai the victim is a bit ridiculous. Her own coach is complaining about her work ethic. I think the USFSA absolutely believes Mirai is the US girl right now most likely to be a Champion. But I'm sure they know quite well that Nagasu lacks discipline, and that as long as Nagasu is given free passes, she will never get there. Mirai needed a kick in the butt.
And I really would like to know what older and more experienced skater, the USFSA could have annointed. The older skaters didn't skate well at all. And Nagasu, Flatt, Wagner belonged on the podium. All were new skaters, and one could argue Flatt frankly should have won (given Nagasu's underrotations.)

Mirai isn't the first young skater to get hyped big time. Kwan, Cohen, Tara etc and all of them did pretty well. Kim and Asada were hyped at the same age too. Sotnikova won Russian Nationals at 12/13, and she's still improving. Maybe the USFSA needs to be a bit more circumspect in the hyping but to blame the hyping on her not being a star right now, is more than a bit much.

Don't get me wrong I'd have placed Mirai 2nd instead of Rachael. But I completely understand the USFSA's frustrating with Mirai. Just like I understood their frustration with Weir, Bowman, Bobek. And all of the mega talented people who may be nice to watch, great personality a glore, but don't seem to have the discipline to really reach their talent.

Cheylana
05-01-2011, 07:15 PM
Does the USFS have a clear policy requiring World/Olympic team members to disclose changes in their injury status? If not, they should establish and enforce such a policy going forward.

skatemommy
05-01-2011, 07:20 PM
^ as was stated above, Tom Z should have been working with USFS team physician in monitoring and evaluating Rachael. Maybe this situation will cause some changes. Hope so.

aftershocks
05-01-2011, 07:23 PM
Yeah, bek. That was the year to reward Flatt over Mirai. And I would argue, allow Mirai to have time to adjust and go through her growth spurts. It was clearly wrong to media hype Mirai and Caroline as juniors -- I felt it was wrong at the time. Who knew how each of them were going to develop in the future. It was clear at the time that they both had a lot to work on. Pushing them so quickly into the public eye did not help either of them -- they were kids who should have been helped to focus on developing their skating skills and improving their weaknesses, (and at the same time focus on helping them adjust to a larger spotlight w/o thrusting them into it). With the proper development at that time, and with adults more concerned with monitoring her growth with her school work, and her growth as a human being (right after she won juniors), instead of all the hype of Mirai and Caroline as the next big things to fill Kwan's skates perhaps Mirai might now be ready to take on the World [or maybe have made the decision that she's not interested in skating, not unlike Ann Patrice McDonough]. Instead, largely due to mishandling by adults, IMHO, we have the "cutesy, adorable" headcase a lot of people seem to feel Mirai is. Yeah, blame the kids for the missteps by adults. Happens all the time.

You are heavily generalizing by mentioning Tara, Kwan and Cohen. None of them were hyped as juniors in the over-the-top way that Caroline and Mirai were. Bowman, Bobek, and Weir -- easy names to throw out there -- all completely different circumstances, time periods. In the case of Weir, don't let me get started. Read his book. He's a rebel who did it his way, at a price. No excuse in the world for an adult representing USFS telling Weir that he would never make it back after his problems at Nats in 2003. The fact he had the talent and the guts to make it back is the only reason for the success he has achieved in skating. But, Johnny's story has very little to do with Mirai's circumstances. Johnny was not hyped to the media as a junior skater, neither was Lysacek. Bowman and Bobek were undisciplined talents during a vastly different time period than either Johnny or Mirai, and for different reasons. Bowman, Bobek, and Tonya Harding for that matter, essentially had challenging childhoods that affected the course of their skating careers. Again, I don't wish to generalize either, because each case is very different, the main factor is none of the people you mention were hyped in the way Mirai was, much less receiving a U.S. National title prematurely.

Cheylana
05-01-2011, 07:23 PM
^ as was stated above, Tom Z should have been working with USFS team physician in monitoring and evaluating Rachael. Maybe this situation will cause some changes. Hope so.
"Should" in accordance with clear USFS rules or "should" from a moral, "right thing to do" sense? Sorry, I didn't think it was clear from above posts in this thread.

Gil-Galad
05-01-2011, 07:29 PM
US could have had 3 spots. Rachel was selfish. Mirai should have been given the opportunity...

Aren't we missing the point a little here? I would like to get back to the point where the girl skated on a broken leg. Obviously in a lot of pain. To me that is just a big medical screw-up. You don't do that. As a coach / team doctor / federation you don't allow that. Stress fracture means that there is probably a rather visible hairline(?) fracture in the tibia. Which is the most important bone in your lower leg, as far as stability goes. That means skating /jumping on it could have severely aggrevated the injury. If this were a normal job, with lots of physical labour to be done, no employer would ever allow you to work with a serious injury like that because of insurance issues, because of your contributions to the company etc.

I also think it's a difference between having a known longtime injury ( la Shabalin) and having diagnosed this kind of injury just a week before the competition. Have they done a full assessment of the injury, including risks? Did they manage to install an efficient pain management regime during that time?

genevieve
05-01-2011, 07:31 PM
I think the "1st Alternate" should always go to Worlds; in case one of the others cannot skate, they are there, and prepared to perform.
Otherwise, there is no point in naming/having them.
Who is going to pay for the extra cost? The federation? Aren't they already strapped for cash? The skater?


I dunno, I imagine it would be pretty expensive to have the first alternate in each discipline - plus their coaches - travel to Worlds with the World team, only to end up not competing 99% of the time. Who would pay for it?


Perhaps; but, better than the alternative - given what's happened in this competition and other recent ones.
Better for whom? And how often? A $$$-sucking precaution that doesn't get used 99% of the time isn't likely to be viewed as good business practices by many people.

I agree with Really's post a few pages back - the vitriol in this thread is beyond OTT. If Rachael had managed to skate well enough for the US to earn the 3 spots people would be considering her a hero for skating through the pain. As it is, the injury compromised her ability to perform. I don't think there's any joy in her camp at having stolen Mirai's spot at Worlds or whatever nefarious plat people want to confer upon her. :blah: But shit happens. It's a competition.

Conga
05-01-2011, 07:33 PM
I think the "1st Alternate" should always go to Worlds; in case one of the others cannot skate, they are there, and prepared to perform.
Otherwise, there is no point in naming/having them.

I agree. Can anyone imagine a team sport without its bench? This is actually a team sporting event because the outcome is a combination of placements setting up the following year.

IMO the responsibility should rest with the USFS (each federation) and has to lie beyond the skater and coach. There probably isn't a competitive athlete alive that wouldn't wait until the last minute to withdraw because that's what makes them competitors. And as for the coach making the correct decision, well, we all know that would entirely depend on the coach. It is ridiculous to think that the only need for a substitute will occur far enough in advance for it to be convenient and there should be a last minute substitute ready and available.

Does anyone know if this ever was the case and that, due to cost, the policy changed?

skatemommy
05-01-2011, 07:34 PM
"Should" in accordance with clear USFS rules or "should" from a moral, "right thing to do" sense? Sorry, I didn't think it was clear from above posts in this thread.

#2...I don't know what the USFS bylaws state. Any :COP: ?

bek
05-01-2011, 07:36 PM
Yeah, bek. That was the year to reward Flatt over Mirai. And I would argue, allow Mirai to have time to adjust and go through her growth spurts. It was clearly wrong to media hype Mirai and Caroline as juniors -- I felt it was wrong at the time. Who knew how each of them were going to develop in the future. It was clear at the time that they both had a lot to work on. Pushing them so quickly into the public eye did not help either of them -- they were kids who should have been helped to focus on developing their skating skills and improving their weaknesses, (and at the same time focus on helping them adjust to a larger spotlight w/o thrusting them into it). With the proper development at that time, and with adults more concerned with monitoring her growth with her school work, and her growth as a human being (right after she won juniors), instead of all the hype of Mirai and Caroline as the next big things to fill Kwan's skates perhaps Mirai might now be ready to take on the World [or maybe have made the decision that she's not interested in skating, not unlike Ann Patrice McDonough]. Instead, largely due to mishandling by adults, IMHO, we have the "cutesy, adorable" headcase a lot of people seem to feel Mirai is. Yeah, blame the kids for the missteps by adults. Happens all the time.

Once again I'm not saying that the hype as necessarily all a good idea. Especially IMO in Zhang's case when Caroline had significant issues. Although in fairness, I've heard behind the scenes the USFSA was stating things.

But to say the hype is the real reason Mirai's not successful is more than a bit ridiculous for me. I'm sorry but Tara Lipinksi was WORLD CHAMPION at that age, and Tara got huge publicity starting from the age of 12.

Michelle got huge publicity starting from the age of 13.

Asada had huge publicity from at least age 13, and Kim was Korean National Champ-at 12 believe and I think even got news crews when she started winning. JGP medals for gosh sakes. In the case of Asada I believe she had news crews following her around from 13 on.

All of these skaters managed to survive the hype to be World Champions, Olympic Champions/Olympic medalists. And I really don't think it can be said that Mirai or Caroline got more attention.

The reason these girls becamse Champions was because in the end-they had the drive to to succeed/be the best. All of them I bet looked past the hype, and said I'm "not World Champion yet." And continued to train their butt offs.

The issue right now with Mirai IS desire. She's got to want to be World and Olympic champion. And she has to decide that she is going to work her a** off until she is. Rather than believing in her own hype. It absolutely is on her/her team. But mainly on her. Teenager or not. The reason I say its on her is because you can't force someone to have that kind of drive.

If Mirai doesn't have it, its fine. I can't criticize her if she wants to be a normal kid. But the fact of the matter is that there are teenagers who DO have that drive, and those are the ones who become Champions.

WildRose
05-01-2011, 07:39 PM
If it was Mirai who had skated injured & in severe pain, I'm pretty sure this would be a thread about how courageous she was to have gone out and done her best to compete and represent her country under extremely difficult circumstances. Instead, because it's Rachel, people are dumping all over her without even knowing all the facts. Mirai had her chance to qualify for Worlds and she blew it. Give it a rest.

IceAlisa
05-01-2011, 07:46 PM
Mirai had her chance to qualify for Worlds and she blew it. Give it a rest.

That's partly true if you don't count the controversial PCS marks given to Rachael at the Nationals. But Mirai skated well enough to be the 1st alternate and should have been given a chance to skate as such. Skating in severe pain, especially knowing that the international judges don't love you at your best isn't the most responsible and thought-out decision.