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View Full Version : Flatt hurt for Worlds but skates anyways !



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TheIronLady
06-19-2011, 09:35 PM
...but I'm starting to think her punishment is a way for the USFSA to deflect the blame for the current slump in women's skating. The real problem is the crooked and bizarre judging at their own National Championships and they need to own up to that.

This is part of the story. It's not a story the USFSA can react to publicly. I mean we can't expect them to a) take responsibility for judges (even though they influence them directly in reality) and b) admit these judges did anything undesirable. It would be positive if they considered the distortions caused by inflated components marks awarded at nationals. I think a solution is a selection system that accounts for scores and placements at international events. When Japan was trying to rev up its ladies division back in the 2000s, it tried a lot of different methods of team selection. I think because the judging in both the men's and ladies division at nationals produced teams with weaker results than we could have had, it is worth reassessing and experimenting.

Triple Butz
06-19-2011, 09:43 PM
Did you think that Harding and Bobek skated better than Kwiatkowski and Ervin at that event?



Harding did, for sure. All of the girls had weak freeskates, Nancy included, but Harding was a much better skater than Ervin and Kwiatkowski and IMO was punished because the judges knew she was not skating up to her potential. They were judging her against herself, rather than judging her against her competitors. I feel similarly about the situation with Nagasu in 2011. Other examples include Johnny Weir in 2007 (made the world team, but they punished him by putting him below Bradley:blah:) and Alissa Czisny got a major gift in 2009. Oh, and Bradley beating a clean Jeremy Abbott in the sp? In what universe? Only the crazy USFSA one...
To answer the other question, I DO think the team selection needs to be based on Nationals performances, the judges just need to judge accurately and responsibly with the PCS and GOE. Since the 07/08 season of CoP, the edge calls at US Nationals have been downright ridiculous as well.

taf2002
06-19-2011, 09:48 PM
I look at it differently.

The USFSA exists to serve the skaters, parents, coaches and local clubs. Skaters, parents, caoches and local clubs do not exist to serve the USFSA (and certainly not to serve the ISU). Skaters do not go to worlds to earn spots; they go to worlds to compete for the world championship.

Hiow could "earning spots" possibly be the reason for holding a world championship competition?

So you think a skater should take team envelope money but have NO responsibility to their federation, to the point of taking a spot on the world team when they have NO hope of skating to a medal?

wildfire
06-19-2011, 09:56 PM
I look at it differently.

The USFSA exists to serve the skaters, parents, coaches and local clubs. Skaters, parents, caoches and local clubs do not exist to serve the USFSA (and certainly not to serve the ISU). Skaters do not go to worlds to earn spots; they go to worlds to compete for the world championship.

Hiow could "earning spots" possibly be the reason for holding a world championship competition?

:respec::respec:

It's rediculous how so many think USFS owns these kids. Families spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get their kids to this level of competition. USFS should be kissing the *** of each and every family willing to fund this level of competiton. The money USFS puts into it's athletes doesnt even begin to get a skater off the ground. USFS would be no where without the families who fund their children, but they seem to forget this fact on a regular basis.

MacMadame
06-19-2011, 10:41 PM
People will only make fun of a sport that fines it's athletes who try to suck it up, shake it off and charge heroically into the fray on one leg.
Once again, she wasn't fined for skating while injured. She was fined for not reporting it.



i am not arguing with the punishment because i don't think it is outlandish, and i don't think it will hinder her future pursuits in the slightest. IMO the people who worry it will are underestimating rachael's personal charisma and drive.
Not to mention how little most of the world cares about figure skating. ;)


What gets me the most angry is that she could have hurt herself
It doesn't make me angry but it is upsetting. To skate on a fractured tibia on your landing leg is dangerous. The pounding the leg takes on the landing is very likely to turn the stress fracture into a total break. In fact, it appears that Rachael did hurt herself further during the course of Worlds.


I myself am hoping that Tom gets 10 times what Flatt got
I'm hoping you stop typing 'a lot' as 'allot'. ;) Seriously, allot is when you allocate things. (per the dictionary: to divide or distribute by share or portion; distribute or parcel out; apportion) so it's confusing.


That would only make the USFSA look pettty and foolish. To win in court, they would have to prove not only that Rachael violated the terms of the contract but also that this violation caused a financial loss for the USFSA.

Plus, whatever publicity the case generated, it would look like the Bad Bad Wolf picking on Little Red Riding Hood.
I doubt they will sue her. If she doesn't pay the fine, she won't be a member of USFSA in good standing, which means she's effectively lost her eligibility. Losing your eligibility, if you want to keep it, is a far greater punishment than being sued for a marginal fine.


I mean we can't expect them to a) take responsibility for judges (even though they influence them directly in reality)
How exactly does USFS influence the judging DIRECTLY. Indirectly, sure. I could tell you stories of actions that were at least perceived as indirect influence no matter how they were intended, but directly... I can tell you that, if USFS would directly tell National level judges how to mark individual skaters, that several such judges who are friends of mine would have quit a long time ago.

Mathman
06-19-2011, 10:49 PM
So you think a skater should take team envelope money but have NO responsibility to their federation, to the point of taking a spot on the world team when they have NO hope of skating to a medal?

When I try to imagine myself in Rachael's position, I always come up with something like this:

"I can do this! Sure it hurts, but I can suck it up. I'm gonna go out out there and skate like my life depends on it. I'm going to skate for God and country and hope for a miracle."

Mathman
06-19-2011, 11:01 PM
Once again, she wasn't fined for skating while injured. She was fined for not reporting it.

The question was how will the public perceive the story.

If you read Hersh's articles, for instance, there is quite a bit about Frank Carroll's anger, quite a bit about what Mirai Nagasu can do, quite a bit about three spots, quite a bit about Rachael's injuries -- the part about the specific contract violation is kind of lost in the shuffle.


Not to mention how little most of the world cares about figure skating.

Indeed. That is why the suggestion that the USFSA needed a scapegoat to shield their own shortcomings seems like a far reach to me. It's not like there was a big public outcry -- off with USFSA's heads -- for not producing a ladies world champion lately.

I have a better theory. The USFSA just announced a new contract with NBC television. I think one of the clauses that they negotiated was that the USFSA would be responsible for manufacturing some kind of incident that makes the newspapers. The USFSA called up Rachael and asked if she'd play along. :cool:


I doubt they will sue her.

It would get more ink if she sued them. You big meanies. You violated my rights just when I was about to sign a million dollar endorsement contract. Pay up. Not to mention all my pain and suffering. You knew back in October that I had a broken leg, but you made me skate all year anyway and then made me go to Worlds!

(sorry for the double post)

MacMadame
06-19-2011, 11:40 PM
The question was how will the public perceive the story.
The general public has no idea who Rachael Flatt is. ;)


I have a better theory.

Please tell me you were joking...

LadyNit
06-19-2011, 11:55 PM
As for questionable judging, I would look rather to 1980, when Lisa-Marie Allen appreared substantially to outskate Linda Fratianne, but the judges put Fratianne first anyway to send her off to the Olympics with a stronger endorsement.

Frank Carroll is still fighting this battle -- trying to get Allen removed as technical specialist at U.S. nationals because he thinks she holds a grudge against him 30 years later.

In response to the bit I bolded: he is? When was this reported, or are you the source for this?

Allen
06-20-2011, 12:14 AM
As for questionable judging, I would look rather to 1980, when Lisa-Marie Allen appreared substantially to outskate Linda Fratianne, but the judges put Fratianne first anyway to send her off to the Olympics with a stronger endorsement.

Frank Carroll is still fighting this battle -- trying to get Allen removed as technical specialist at U.S. nationals because he thinks she holds a grudge against him 30 years later.

You might want to recheck your sources. The judges put Allen first in both the short and long programs at the 1980 Nationals. However, she was not able to make up the deficit after compulsory figures, giving Fratiane the win.

You might also want to cite a source that would support your allegation that Carroll was trying to have Allen removed from the technical panel at nationals.

Mathman
06-20-2011, 12:48 AM
Please tell me you were joking...

Kind of.

But my pretend theory makes more sense than what actually happened. Why would USFS shoot itself in the foot -- yes, I know, the general public doesn't know USFS has a foot, but still -- by bringing negative publicity down on itself, bad-mouthing one of their own showcased performers, and making themselves look petty and vindictive?

For what? Just to get Phil Hersh off their backs? To calm Frank Carroll down? None of that makes sense to me.

Iceman
06-20-2011, 12:53 AM
I, the skater, agree to adhere to my seasonal plan


Was Mirai reprimanded last year when Frank publicly stated she was not practicing the way she should. Seems to me in that case she was not adhering to her seasonal plan.

With regard to that: Do skaters submit their seasonal plan to the USFSA and does the USFSA check to see that they are following it.

ProgramerUSFS
06-20-2011, 01:03 AM
Kind of.

But my pretend theory makes more sense than what actually happened. Why would USFS shoot itself in the foot -- yes, I know, the general public doesn't know USFS has a foot, but still -- by bringing negative publicity down on itself, bad-mouthing one of their own showcased performers, and making themselves look petty and vindictive?

For what? Just to get Phil Hersh off their backs? To calm Frank Carroll down? None of that makes sense to me.

I suspect they have some real live marketing people at USFSA that they haven't had before. The primary rule of marketing is. Get attention bad or good, make sure people love you or hate you, nothing in between.

A few black eyes here and there, dosen't hurt in the end. Everything needs its conspiracy. For instance, Hersh sells 10 times the readers by throwing out "it looks like this might be going on", or "I have heard from some people who said this". It doesn't have to be fact, its what was heard and then he follows it up as more information comes out about what happened. That is the news today and it is what we all want to hear about, the down and dirty. I suspect Hersh created some of this, but they wanted the press stories so that they were on the front page good or bad. To me, its a smart thing to do. Plus, this needed to be done for the good of the sport, as you can't let things continue to be under the rug.

Mathman
06-20-2011, 01:30 AM
You might want to recheck your sources. The judges put Allen first in both the short and long programs at the 1980 Nationals. However, she was not able to make up the deficit after compulsory figures, giving Fratiane the win.

I knew that. :) What I was trying to say is that the perception of the public (I know, I know – what public?) was left with the perception that one skater skated the best, the other skater won the prize.

Here is how it was reported in Sports Illustrated (January 28, 1980 – yes, I keep all my Sprots Illustrateds. :) )


The judges didn't exactly vote skaters up or down; the system is a lot more complicated than that. They just voted subjectively, as they always do, which means that some of them may have been staring subjectively at the ceiling while the skating was going on.

New topic:


You might also want to cite a source that would support your allegation that Carroll was trying to have Allen removed from the technical panel at nationals.


In response to the bit I bolded: he is? When was this reported, or are you the source for this?

I wrote thoughtlessly. Sorry.

I didn’t look anything up, but what I was remembering was the outcry at 2010 U.S. Nationals. Mirai put on a dazzling display in the long program to Carmen, sweeping the television and live audiences off their feet. Then when the scores came down, Mirai lost to Rachael (who also skated great, but not “Mirai great”) because of two costly and questionable downgrades. The tech specialist was Lisa-Maire Allen, and as I recall a supposed Carroll-Allen animosity was alleged.

I apologize to Mr. Carroll for having spoken rashly, if in fact he did not have anything to do with all this. If he calmly accepted the judgments of the tech panel, even though they were borderline and lined up consistently against his skater, then I am wrong and my hat is off to the gentleman.

skateboy
06-20-2011, 02:34 AM
Just chiming in here to say that this thread makes me giggle just a little...

I recall, just after Nationals, reading a thread (threads?) on this forum where a number a posters felt that it was time for Mirai to leave Frank, he was no longer a good coach for her, with all the speculation as to which coach would be best for Mirai, etc.

Now that eville, conniving, lying Rachael committed the sin of sins at Worlds by not reporting her injury, all that previous talk is somehow forgotten...