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View Full Version : Flatt hurt for Worlds but skates anyways !



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Clarice
06-18-2011, 11:43 PM
Some people don't like Rachael's hairstyle. That doesn't have anything to do with the situation.

Rachael may be hurt, but she also broke a rule. You would like USFS to feel sorry for her because she's hurt and not punish her for breaking the rule. That really wouldn't be fair, though. This rule is about skaters who get hurt. They're supposed to tell USFS so that decisions can be made about whether they or the alternate would do a better job representing the United States at an international competition. Other skaters have gotten hurt and told USFS the truth about their injuries. Rachael did not, so USFS gets to decide what the consequences are for breaking that rule. USFS picked Rachael to be on the World Team because they thought she could do the best job, and they spent money sending her to the competition. If she had told them she was hurt, and they decided to send her anyway, she would not have a problem. But she didn't tell them, and they have decided to fine her as a consequence so that they get at least some of that money back.

I think that Rachael's coach should also have a consequence for letting Rachael skate with such a bad injury, and for not telling USFS. USFS has said that they are thinking about what his consequence should be. We are waiting to hear what they decide.

PDilemma
06-19-2011, 12:01 AM
Some people don't like Rachael's hairstyle. That doesn't have anything to do with the situation.

I mentioned her hair in my post. It was hyperbole to point out that all the extraneous stuff about Rachael that people are bringing up has nothing to do with why she was reprimanded and fined.

Some people do not understand hyperbole, obviously.

Mathman
06-19-2011, 02:49 AM
Ok. After skaters sign this agreement. If they get hurt. At the part were they go and report in to the Federation. What then is the pro.? Does the Federation then ask the Skater if she/he feels well enough to skate and leave it up to the skater to decidde if they want to skate OR choose the Alternate? Or does the Federation just tell the skater flat-out that they have no choice but to send in the Alternate?

I think all private organizations have clauses in their Constitutions along the lines that the organization itself is the sole arbiter of disputes about rules, contract language, and sanctions. So if Rachael argues, “But gosh, I thought I felt good enough to skate,” the USFSA can just say, “Well, given the evidence that we collected after the fact, you should have told us about it anyway.”

The skater does not really have any rebuttal or appeal options.

On the other hand, the USFSA has no way of getting any money out of Rachael if she blows off the fine, wipes her rear end with the reprimand, and heads for school. :)

I guess they will deduct the fine from her Grand Prix allowance if she returns to competition next season.

kwanfan1818
06-19-2011, 03:04 AM
My questions are:

1. By when does USFS have to submit the names of skaters for Grand Prix?

2. Is there anything in the USFS statutes that requires USFS to submit a skater's name for GP?

3. If she doesn't pay the fine/agree to pay the fine, but intends to compete next year, can USFS not submit her name for GP, based on some other rule or clause for not being up on one's obligations?

The Russian Fed "retired" Sokolova and Skate Canada "retired" Sandhu from participation in GP the season after they earned spots for themselves, based on World standings the year before. There is no general obligation for federations to submit names.

Mathman
06-19-2011, 04:25 AM
I can't think of any instance (since Tonya Harding) where the USFSA just said, "We don't like you any more, go away." In the case of federations that are run by powerful wheeler-dealers, like Russia and France (not sure about Japan, Canada, etc.) that's another story..

The USFSA prides itself on taking care of business fair and square. Rachael is not really going to tell the USFSA to take their fine and stuff it -- I was just kidding about that part. Rachael (or her parents) will pay up, she will say she is sorry and she learned her lesson. Having qualified for assignment to Grand Prix events, she will be assigned -- maybe to her first choice, maybe not. She will skate at Nationals expecting to be judged according to her performance.

I don't think either Rachael or the USFSA wants bad feelings to escalate. Neither side would have anything to gain thereby. Phil Hersh will turn his attention elsewhere. Frank Carroll will go back to training Mirai.

The worst thing about this, to me, is that if the story attracts any attention at all in the national news, the focus will be, "look what a sissy sport figure skating is -- they punish athletes who try to suck it up and compete through injury." Whereas this trait is admired in other sports.

kwanfan1818
06-19-2011, 04:43 AM
The worst thing about this, to me, is that if the story attracts any attention at all in the national news, the focus will be, "look what a sissy sport figure skating is -- they punish athletes who try to suck it up and compete through injury." Whereas this trait is admired in other sports.
As has been pointed out earlier, in team sports, there's almost always someone who can substitute for an injured player, in case that person's performance is lacking.

In cumulative team events, like gymnastics team events, relays, etc., then it's a different story, because there can't be a substitute once the event segment/race has started. If the athlete performs up to expectations or exceeds them, then, that's great, and the person is a hero. If an athlete is injured, runs a relay, and the team loses because of bad performance that's injury-related, I think there would be as much, if not more flack, especially if it's not disclosed.

Mathman
06-19-2011, 05:11 AM
Even in team sports, though, the athlete always begs, "please coach, put me in, I can do it. Broken leg? what broken leg? Just tape it up and I'm good to go!"

This is acceptably macho and sporty. Whining about injuries and saying "oh dear, I guess I should withdraw for the good of the team" isn't.

People will only make fun of a sport that fines it's athletes who try to suck it up, shake it off and charge heroically into the fray on one leg.

Sasha'sSpins
06-19-2011, 05:37 AM
I can't think of any instance (since Tonya Harding) where the USFSA just said, "We don't like you any more, go away." In the case of federations that are run by powerful wheeler-dealers, like Russia and France (not sure about Japan, Canada, etc.) that's another story..

The USFSA prides itself on taking care of business fair and square. Rachael is not really going to tell the USFSA to take their fine and stuff it -- I was just kidding about that part. Rachael (or her parents) will pay up, she will say she is sorry and she learned her lesson. Having qualified for assignment to Grand Prix events, she will be assigned -- maybe to her first choice, maybe not. She will skate at Nationals expecting to be judged according to her performance.

I don't think either Rachael or the USFSA wants bad feelings to escalate. Neither side would have anything to gain thereby. Phil Hersh will turn his attention elsewhere. Frank Carroll will go back to training Mirai.

The worst thing about this, to me, is that if the story attracts any attention at all in the national news, the focus will be, "look what a sissy sport figure skating is -- they punish athletes who try to suck it up and compete through injury." Whereas this trait is admired in other sports.

I know you were just kidding, but I think if Rachael signed a legal contract with USFSA (and I don't know that she did) she'd probably be obliged to pay said fine or else risk getting sued. It would'nt be the same if USFSA were to deduct any future monies from Rachael's funding-I'd imagine they want it to come out of Rachael's own pocket. Jmo.

Vagabond
06-19-2011, 06:39 AM
People will only make fun of a sport that fines it's athletes who try to suck it up, shake it off and charge heroically into the fray on one leg.

Sportsmanship requires being honest and respecting your teammates, your opponents, and the organizations that govern your sport.

Rachael Flatt isn't another Kerri Strug (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFn47a_Ny0Y). She's a rule-breaker who wrongfully deprived another skater of the opportunity to go to Worlds. There's nothing heroic about that.

skfan
06-19-2011, 07:01 AM
Sportsmanship requires being honest and respecting your teammates, your opponents, and the organizations that govern your sport.

Rachael Flatt isn't another Kerri Strug (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFn47a_Ny0Y). She's a rule-breaker who wrongfully deprived another skater of the opportunity to go to Worlds. There's nothing heroic about that.


rachael didn't wrongfully deprive mirai of anything. mirai is not entitled to rachael's opportunity to skate at worlds. at nationals, mirai failed to earn the chance to be the one agonizing over, should i go or should i back out, what is coach telling me, what are the doctors telling me, do i really want to do this, how will this affect my future, will my leg snap mid triple jump, all that jazz.

so rachael's a rule breaker. considering the rule she broke, i can live with that. i would still sit next to her on the bus. and i am still unhappy that her punishment was publicized while tom Z's still remains under discussion.

i am not arguing with the punishment because i don't think it is outlandish, and i don't think it will hinder her future pursuits in the slightest. IMO the people who worry it will are underestimating rachael's personal charisma and drive. even though i am not rachael's fan, she's got what she needs to go as far as she wants in any discipline that doesn't require (or shall i say emphasize) the things nature didn't endow her with (i.e. a body shape like yeonah kim's).

ETA: i understand people have issues with the judging of nationals. i am going by the assumption the judging wasn't horribly off. to my uneducated eyes mirai was not robbed at nationals. i would have preferred to see mirai at worlds, i prefer to watch mirai's skating to rachael's, but i feel the tone of some of the posts are too harsh towards rachael. just my opinion.

as for mathman's contention that figure skating will be sissy-fied by this incident :) please. figure skating was already a niche sport. those who like it, like it for or despite it sissy-ness, those who think ill of skating because of the flatt situation's resolution, well, they were never well-disposed towards skating in the first place, and pretty unlikely to affect NBC's ratings one way or the other.

Vagabond
06-19-2011, 07:10 AM
rachael didn't wrongfully deprive mirai of anything. mirai is not entitled to rachael's opportunity to skate at worlds.

I disagree with you, but if it wasn't Mirai Nagasu who was wrongfully deprived of the opportunity, it was Roberta Rodeghiero. One of those two ought to have been given the chance.

skfan
06-19-2011, 07:19 AM
I disagree with you, but if it wasn't Mirai Nagasu who was wrongfully deprived of the opportunity, it was Roberta Rodeghiero. One of those two ought to have been given the chance.


are you talking about someone who didn't make it out of the qualification rounds, who might have been able to skate if rachael had withdrawn, even if mirai couldn't make it to russia in time?

that's a good point that i failed to consider. i'm probably over-reacting to your post, because your tone suggests rachael committed a wrong out of proportion to the size of the wrong she committed in my head. 'wrongfully deprived' in my mind seems to be reserved for something on the order of crimes--discrimination, exploitation, etc. but no doubt that's a quirk of my thinking that doesn't apply to most reasonable people :)


ETA

on the other hand, roberta, like min-jung kwak and everybody else in the qualifying round, also had her own chance to earn a spot in the short program independent of anything rachael decided to do.

i feel sad that roberta didn't get her chance, especially since you pointed out how many jumps roberta was able to land--just as i feel sad that i didn't get to see mirai and min-jung's programs at worlds. but i still reserve true ire for bigger, badder wrongs committed by other people, rather than rachael in this particular situation. i respect the opinions of other reasonable people who see it differently.

Vagabond
06-19-2011, 07:46 AM
are you talking about someone who didn't make it out of the qualification rounds, who might have been able to skate if rachael had withdrawn, even if mirai couldn't make it to russia in time?

Yes.

(BTW, she did four different fully-rotated triple jumps in one program in Moscow, which is more than can be said for Flatt! :P)

ProgramerUSFS
06-19-2011, 02:39 PM
Yes.

(BTW, she did four different fully-rotated triple jumps in one program in Moscow, which is more than can be said for Flatt! :P)

This is a very good point and one I hadn't thought of before. What gets me the most angry is that she could have hurt herself and I don't buy the stories about the fact that it was to late for Miri to get to Moscow. Has anyone provided information as to what Miri would have had to do, like get a visa? I myself am hoping that Tom gets 10 times what Flatt got, as he is in a position that allot of people are trusting he will make good decisions to protect the children he works with. But you are very correct, it just wasn't Miri that was hurt by these actions, another skater was as well. Good point.

Vagabond
06-19-2011, 03:07 PM
This is a very good point and one I hadn't thought of before. What gets me the most angry is that she could have hurt herself and I don't buy the stories about the fact that it was to late for Miri to get to Moscow. Has anyone provided information as to what Miri would have had to do, like get a visa?

What we do know is (1) Russia expedited its visa process for foreign skaters, coaches, and officials going to Worlds and that Nagasu (and Frank Carroll) might already have obtained a visa because she was the designated first alternate on the U.S. ladies' team and (2) Flatt said in her interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG3lNEgWB40) after her Free Skate in Moscow that she "didn't find out what it was," i.e., a stress fracture of the tibia, until the Friday before Worlds. That leaves open the possibility that she knew she had something wrong with her leg much earlier than that, perhaps early enough for Nagasu to obtain a visa if she didn't have one already.