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View Full Version : Flatt hurt for Worlds but skates anyways !



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judgejudy27
05-16-2011, 07:26 AM
Is three spots THAT big of a deal?

I can imagine there are a lot of Kwan and Slutskaya fans who would have loved for the US to have had only two spots for the 2002 Olympics. Guess who would have been left off the Olympic team? Ahm jes' sayin'.

Cohen would have been. If there were only 2 spots for the U.S I am sure Hughes would have been placed over Cohen at Nationals.

skateboy
05-16-2011, 08:13 AM
Cohen would have been. If there were only 2 spots for the U.S I am sure Hughes would have been placed over Cohen at Nationals.

Not really with you on that one. I think Cohen was much more favored than Hughes by the judges, even in 2002. Geez, she almost beat Michelle two years before that! Plus, the only time Sarah ever beat Sasha was in 2003, the year AFTER her Olympic win.

aftershocks
05-16-2011, 09:06 AM
Not only Kwan, but a great back up US ladies as well, who pushed Kwan, and themselves to be on top of their game.

Taking nothing away from the other U.S. ladies, IMHO, Kwan was doing most of the pushing -- of herself and the other ladies both nationally and internationally. Where you could say Kwan was being pushed would be in the 3/3 category. Ironically, however, it was Kwan who completed 3/3 combo to win Worlds in 2000, and her competition faltered. Kwan, in my estimation was not pushed by Cohen or Lipinski or Bobek. To a degree, they were each competitive with her of course, but Cohen ultimately was too inconsistent on her jumps, Bobek was unfocused and undisciplined, and Lipinski learned/ co-opted from Kwan's brillliance at '98 Nationals, and ended up winning Olympic gold, and then decided to quit while she was ahead. While Lipinski had some wonderful qualities and the 3loop/3loop, she never had Michelle's mature artistry, longevity, iconic moves, brilliant programs ... And, since there is no longer a 6.0 scoring system, Michelle Kwan's record total of 56 perfect 6.0 scores (in Worlds and Nationals events only -- not cheesefests), will never be broken.


... since the implementation of CoP, there hasn't been really any skater from any country who has consistently been on top like Kwan. Every competition is anybody's game and completely different because we don't have reputation propping anyone up anymore. I'm not saying that Kwan always won because of reputation, but I'm sure that a few times she did. ... in the old days you could still mess up a bit and rep would pull you through. Today's girls don't have that luxury.

Why didn't they let Flatt win in '09? Because Flatt hadn't won yet and there was still a little hope pinned on Alissa to become the next big thing. With both skaters clean, Alissa's style is absolutely preferable over Rachael. Mirai was still too young. So they gave it to Alissa, she faltered, and as punishment they tried propping up Flatt the next year, hoping she would be the next big thing. Then Flatt faltered and the whole scheme went haywire.

ITA with most of your points, except I think the rep aspect or judges loving you aspect still has play today (case in point, Chan at 2010 Olympics and his GP mishaps where he still won the comp).

Also, would you be able to point out any competition (not cheesefest) where Michelle Kwan was "propped up" by the judges. She was usually generously rewarded at Nats, but deservingly so in all the cases I can recall, and in some instances she wasn't highly rewarded domestically or internationally when she might have deserved better marks, as they were pushing/ hyping others to be competitive with her. I don't think Kwan ever needed "propping up" by anyone, as she always set personal high standards and goals, and was determined to do her best every time she went out on the ice, whether for a competition or an exhibition.

leafygreens
05-16-2011, 03:29 PM
ITA with most of your points, except I think the rep aspect or judges loving you aspect still has play today (case in point, Chan at 2010 Olympics and his GP mishaps where he still won the comp).

I definitely agree that rep still matters to an extent, but the outcome is a lot less predictable than it used to be. Today we have people winning/medalling that never would have under the old system.

What did you mean by Lipinski co-opting Kwan's brilliance? Did you mean that she learned from the "enjoyment" aspect of Kwan's performance at nationals and Lipinski used that to help her win Olys?

aftershocks
05-16-2011, 09:40 PM
^^ Yes, definitely that is what I meant, in addition to Lipinski copping some of Kwan's gorgeous arm and hand movements from Lyra Angelica. Lipinski was full of joy, which helped overcome the immaturity of her choreography and music -- also skating last in the lp was to Lipinski's advantage. I even recall Lipinski's father being quoted in the press at the time as making a general comment that "skaters are helped by learning from each other." [that's a paraphrase, as I don't have the exact quote in front of me].

We are definitely OT too. :) In any case, I hope Rachael finds a coach who can help her discover and express the purity of her unique skating style and personality. Maybe she should grow out her hair as well and get styling tips and costume tips that might help give her a more flattering and engaging appearance on the ice. She's probably excited about the new challenge of balancing school with skating.

leafygreens
05-16-2011, 10:13 PM
Something that counts just as much as rep is "going second"/"saving room" which has benefited so many skaters in close competitions. How many times have we seen a dramatic win that seems to be just eeked out between really close competitors by the one going last. The amount of times this has happened means that it's more than just a coincidence. Luck of the draw counts just as much as rep even though both are pretty much unethical.

As for Rachael, I don't know why judges are giving opinions on her hairstyle, and whoever told her to go short was an idiot! It kind of reminds me of when pregnant women feel out of control with the changes in their bodies and think chopping off their hair will fix it. It never does and often makes things worse. Not saying that RF looks preg, but she has a specific body type and style that will never be fixed with short hair.

I don't think she will be back after school starts. If she does come back it will be kind of the same path that Hughes 2.0 took, a gradual downfall before retiring altogether.

chipso1
05-17-2011, 12:24 AM
Not really with you on that one. I think Cohen was much more favored than Hughes by the judges, even in 2002. Geez, she almost beat Michelle two years before that! Plus, the only time Sarah ever beat Sasha was in 2003, the year AFTER her Olympic win.

I don't think they would have passed Hughes over for Cohen. Hughes was the reigning World bronze medalist, and had a strong fall season, beating Kwan & Slutskaya at Skate Canada and nabbing bronze at the GPF over Butyrskaya.

At that point in time, Cohen didn't have much to her resume.

agalisgv
05-17-2011, 12:48 AM
It kind of reminds me of when pregnant women feel out of control with the changes in their bodies and think chopping off their hair will fix it. It never does and often makes things worse. Most pregnant women I know who cut their hair do so because they don't want to fool with it presently, and it's cooler (since being pregnant can make you feel uber warm much of the time).

Iceman
05-17-2011, 01:03 AM
And after her vacation in Hawaii, Rachel is headed to Delaware to work on the triple axel.

Re Michelle having ever been propped up, if that ever happened it was most likely at the Skate Canada (sorry, can't remember year, possibly pre salt lake city Olympics) where her win over Hughes was controversial among quite a few.

heckles
05-17-2011, 01:14 AM
Most pregnant women I know who cut their hair do so because they don't want to fool with it presently

Pregnant women cut their hair so they won't look hot to men, since hotness is what led them to get knocked-up in the first place.

Triple Butz
05-17-2011, 01:38 AM
And after her vacation in Hawaii, Rachel is headed to Delaware to work on the triple axel.

Re Michelle having ever been propped up, if that ever happened it was most likely at the Skate Canada (sorry, can't remember year, possibly pre salt lake city Olympics) where her win over Hughes was controversial among quite a few.


:confused::confused:
Sarah Hughes WON Skate Canada leading up to the Olympics over Kwan AND Slutskaya.

jcopper
05-17-2011, 02:10 AM
:confused::confused:
Sarah Hughes WON Skate Canada leading up to the Olympics over Kwan AND Slutskaya.
I think Skate America is the comp meant rather than Skate Canada.

euterpe
05-17-2011, 03:17 AM
I think Skate America is the comp meant rather than Skate Canada.

Nope, it was Skate Canada 2001. Kwan and Hughes faced off at Skate America, but it was Kwan, Hughes and Slutskaya at Skate Canada.

Skate America Result:
1 Michelle KWAN USA 1.5 1 1
2 Sarah HUGHES USA 3.0 2 2
3 Viktoria VOLCHKOVA RUS 4.5 3 3
4 Shizuka ARAKAWA JPN 7.0 6 4
5 Sasha COHEN USA 7.0 4 5
6 Julia SEBESTYEN HUN 8.5 5 6
7 Jennifer ROBINSON CAN 10.5 7 7
8 Mikkeline KIERKEGAARD DEN 13.0 8 9
9 Utako WAKAMATSU JPN 13.5 11 8
10 Elena SOKOLOVA RUS 14.5 9 10
11 Vanessa GIUNCHI ITA 16.0 10 11

Skate Canada Result:
1 Sarah HUGHES USA 2.5 1 2
2 Irina SLUTSKAYA RUS 3.0 4 1
3 Michelle KWAN USA 4.0 2 3
4 Fumie SUGURI JPN 5.5 3 4
5 Sarah MEIER SWI 9.0 6 6
6 Galina MANIACHENKO UKR 9.5 5 7
7 Annie BELLEMARE CAN 10.5 11 5
8 Laetitia HUBERT FRA 11.5 7 8
9 Marianne DUBUC CAN 14.0 8 10
10 Nicole WATT CAN 14.0 10 9
11 Kristina OBLASOVA RUS 15.5 9 11
12 Tamara DOROFEJEV HUN 18.0 12 12

ETA: It was the Kwan win at Skate America that was somewhat controversial.

Iceman
05-17-2011, 03:22 AM
I'm still kwanfused lmao

victoriaheidi
05-17-2011, 03:37 AM
Back to Rachael Flatt, why the heck does she want to work on a 3A now? I can think of at least ten other things she needs to do/work on before she thinks about a 3A.