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View Full Version : Flatt hurt for Worlds but skates anyways !



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Sparks
05-13-2011, 11:28 PM
Weel, I imagined if the "pecking order" was still in effect, Irina would have won in 2006.

sarakimm
05-13-2011, 11:29 PM
There are all kinds of instances in the long history of this sport of manipulation and politics. A really good, well-researched and unbiased book should be written about the politics and manipulation that are so much apart of this sport that longtime fans accept it as a matter of course. I doubt that such a book will be written anytime soon, but it would sure shed some needed light on the subject.

Which of us would not buy that book?????? You are so right that we have all come to accept it as a matter of course. Unfortunately, the rest of the world hasn't. And it is their correct perception of a sport corrupted by politics and manipulation that has caused the decrease in popularity of figure skating world-wide. No one wants to pay for advertising for a competition that is regarded as fixed. Thus, we have a season where many people cannot even watch the competitions on TV. Two things have been glaringly obvious over the last year or two: one, that USFSA was absolutely touting Rachael Flatt as the next great female US figure skater (??!!); and two, that Mirai Nagasu is a superior skater.

sarakimm
05-14-2011, 12:00 AM
I. It's so clear in Alissa's skating now that her beautiful skating and newfound strength is coming from WITHIN her.

One of the most striking things about Rachael's skating this year is that I never really got the feeling that it was Rachael skating so much as what she had been told to do. Her team talked constantly about how the judges wanted to see her hair shorter, lighter, they wanted her to have a different short program, they wanted to see her light and perky instead of classical. But the result is that on the ice she never really looked connected to her skating...

To me, her injury is just another part of that disconnection. She never seemed to make a single move on the ice because SHE felt like doing it, but because she'd been told that was what the judges wanted. Based on her statements and performances this year, it makes sense that she'd play down her injury and should skate even if she wasn't feeling it, even if she was in too much pain to skate well. That also meant that, consistent with what she's been doing all season, she wasn't able to skate with any real joy, feeling, or beauty...


Say what you will about Mirai, but she's one of her very harshest critics. I much prefer the honesty of the other skaters to the packaged quotes we get from Rachael and her coaches. I wish the USFS would support (and even insist upon) honesty, too.

I totally agree. What we love to see is joy in the skating. The USFSA does not get that manufactured and plastic is not what we want. I fear for all of figure skating these days. The package is becoming more important than the skater.

aftershocks
05-14-2011, 12:46 AM
Which of us would not buy that book?????? You are so right that we have all come to accept it as a matter of course. Unfortunately, the rest of the world hasn't. And it is their correct perception of a sport corrupted by politics and manipulation that has caused the decrease in popularity of figure skating world-wide. No one wants to pay for advertising for a competition that is regarded as fixed. Thus, we have a season where many people cannot even watch the competitions on TV. Two things have been glaringly obvious over the last year or two: one, that USFSA was absolutely touting Rachael Flatt as the next great female US figure skater (??!!); and two, that Mirai Nagasu is a superior skater.

:respec: Thank you, sarakimm, ITA. BTW, the quote you cited before your comments was mine. :) It would take a sleuth and good investigative journalism going back decades--as well as objectivity and good storytelling to write such a book. Figure skating is ripe for telling such a story. A pretty good book in general on the history of figure skating was written by James R. Hines, published in 2006: Figure Skating: A History -- it offers some interesting tidbits and fascinating facts.

RD
05-14-2011, 01:34 AM
Any HARDCORE evidence that USFS is touting Flatt over everyone else? Or does that just originate from people's general dislike of her?

I can't think of any concrete examples off the top of my mind. The only thing, perhaps, that could raise a red flag is that Nagasu was not given the title last year...but then again, replay showed that the DG jumps were actually UR. shrug...

judgejudy27
05-14-2011, 01:39 AM
I disagree that Kim/Mao are downwardly mobile. Moscow was like 99 worlds to me. Kwan/Kim on a bad day is still better than most ladies on a good day. Maria/Miki walked thru the open door, but being at their best isn't enough, others have to falter too. Irina/Mao were MIA but don't count either of them out. Soldatova/Kostner were damn lucky, and probably both undeserving.

And yet Maria the career long shot probably would have defended her title in 2000 even with with Kwan's amazing long program and Slutskaya's dominant season, had she just skated a clean or even somewhat more decent long program. Also now as reigning World Champ won all her grand prix events, except for the GP final, despite abysmal performances and being outskated in most of them. Dont underestimate what the clout and momentum of a World title can do for you, especialy if a clean long program isnt a lifetime achievement thing like it was for Maria (although in Miki's case she is taking next year off so it probably doesnt matter).

As for Soldatova she skated poorly in the 99-2000 season and rather than taking blame for her own failures changed citizenship to Belarus from Russia, and well that was the certain end of her even if she had morphed into the next Janet Lynn.

judgejudy27
05-14-2011, 01:45 AM
I call BS. Ando did win Worlds in 2007 with a fine skate.
Pecking order? IMO, 2006 Olympics Ladies event was fairly wide open. Did anyone have all their money on Shizuka?

2007 had nothing to do with 2006. All the old gaurd had retired and Kim and Asada were on the senior scene full time. It was a new era entirely with no bearing on 2006. 06-07 season was Ando's true arrival as a top skater, as she showed early by skating at a level well beyond what she had ever showed before at 06 Skate America, and it still stands as her best season of skating to date. 2005 Worlds she was 6th place, 2006 GP final she was 4th in a depleted field, and 2006 Japanese Nationals she was 6th, so no she was not a contender for Turin at all. She wasnt even mentioned by anyone in the leadup to the event.

2006 was not that wide open. Slutskaya, Cohen, and Arakawa were the only ones who had a real shot. Asada would have been a threat had she been able to skate. That was it really. Slutskaya and Cohen both made major mistakes and still easily finished well above Fumie Suguri, so the group of real contenders was a small one. Suguri btw virtually always defeated Ando in head to head competition at that point. Ando and Kostner skating their very best that year would have been battling Suguri for 4th place.

Arakawa was the 3rd favorite for the gold behind Slutskaya and Cohen so her win wasnt that much a surprise.

In 2010 Ando and to a lesser degree Kostner were contenders going in, but as it was the level of skating was too high for either to have medalled regardless how they skated. The 2007 Worlds is the only time Ando skated at a level to maybe medal in the insanely strong Vancouver event, while Kostner never has.

agalisgv
05-14-2011, 01:56 AM
And it is their correct perception of a sport corrupted by politics and manipulation that has caused the decrease in popularity of figure skating world-wide. I thought figure skating had become vastly more popular in Japan and S. Korea in recent years. And so far I haven't heard of figure skating waning much in Russia.
No one wants to pay for advertising for a competition that is regarded as fixed. And yet, there were several large advertisers lined up for Worlds in Japan, and Russia didn't have any problems finding advertisers for their Worlds.
Thus, we have a season where many people cannot even watch the competitions on TV. You mean the US? Well, the US isn't the world, is it now?
Two things have been glaringly obvious over the last year or two: one, that USFSA was absolutely touting Rachael Flatt as the next great female US figure skater (??!!) I sure never saw that. Talking about someone's AP classes isn't the same as holding someone up. Beyond AP classes, I haven't heard much promoting of Flatt.

Marco
05-14-2011, 03:02 AM
Any HARDCORE evidence that USFS is touting Flatt over everyone else?

Her PCS at 2010 Nationals is evidence. For 2 continuous seasons I have said it's a mistake to prop her up and what do you know :shuffle:

IceAlisa
05-14-2011, 03:10 AM
Her PCS at 2010 Nationals is evidence. For 2 continuous seasons I have said it's a mistake to prop her up and what do you know :shuffle:

And many of us have been saying this for several years.

elka_sk8
05-14-2011, 03:21 AM
I call BS. Ando did win Worlds in 2007 with a fine skate.
Pecking order? IMO, 2006 Olympics Ladies event was fairly wide open. Did anyone have all their money on Shizuka?

Maybe not leading up to the event, but watching the warm-up to the 2006 Olymipic free skate, I could sense Shizuka was going to win. She didn't have the pressure. Sasha and Irina looked nervous as can be, while Shizuka looked as cool as a cucumber.

But back on topic, I wish Rachel all the best, whatever she decides to do. Seeing her 2007/2008 programs reminded me of what a joyful skater she used to be. Don't get that vibe anymore (and her costumes/hair were waaay better- what happened??).

berthesghost
05-14-2011, 03:45 AM
I thought figure skating had become vastly more popular in Japan and S. Korea in recent years. Well, "more popular" is relative if you're talking about Asian countries where it wasn't popular at all in before. And Russia isn't any more "the whole world" than USA is, despite what either country will tell you! LOL Wasn't it just yesterday that everyone was so upset over all the rink closures in Russia?
And yet, there were several large advertisers lined up for Worlds in Japan, and Russia didn't have any problems finding advertisers for their Worlds. Um, I'm pretty sure advertising goes by event, not location. Didn't you think it odd that Moscow had more than 50% Japanese ads on the rink side? IDK, I'd just assumed that it was the same ads that 2011 worlds sold a year ago, not that Moscow somehow got a lot of Japanese businesses to buy at the last minute. I'd also assumed the orig poster was talking about tv ads anyway.
You mean the US? Well, the US isn't the world, is it now? LOL well, no, but in the skating world it is a much larger chunk that in other areas. I mean, what are you trying to say: funk the us, skating is mad popular in Africa and South America! LOL The main reason why I found my way here is because I moved to Europe from the us, and there was sooooo much less skating on tv, I was jonesing for news and so had to go www. IDK, having followed euros for decades now, I have a hard time buying the "skating isn't in a decline in europe" partyline. Asia? IDK, even if you combine Chinese Pairs and Japanese singles, don't ya kinda just get Canada? :P

agalisgv
05-14-2011, 06:05 AM
but in the skating world it is a much larger chunk that in other areas. It used to be back when, but I would say the main money for the sport is coming out of Asia at this point--particularly Japan. Skating has definitely declined in the US, but I wouldn't say that's the case worldwide. Certainly that's not true for Asia, and I'm not sure that's true for either Russia or Canada.

Most people who tune in to skating aren't die-hard fans. In any sport, if the sport's appeal is limited to only ubers, that will necessarily be a sport with a limited base. Skating was popular in the US because of the Nancy/Tonya drama. The story went mainstream and got people who don't normally tune in to skating to tune in. But over the years skating drama in the US hasn't often branched out into mainstream consciousness so much because there isn't the same non-skating drama associated with it (eg. criminal conspiracies, etc.). So the primary crossover appeal comes from having Olympic champions. In the absence of that, the appeal becomes restricted to ubers, and that's a small base.

That IMO is why skating has lost popularity in the US--not because of the public being fed up with judging scandals. Very few people in the US have ever heard there were judging scandals in the sport to begin with, much less have been turned off by it.

VIETgrlTerifa
05-14-2011, 04:10 PM
I agree. I think people give too much credit to the general public in remembering any scandalous situations in figure skating. People have to also understand that tv has changed tremendously since the skating boom of the 1990s with much more competition for attention (what people watch has changed too) and the internet taking up most people's times.

I think skating CAN have popularity (it is consistently the most watched event during the Olympic broadcasts) but I don't know how sustainable it is because it is such a niche sport that not everybody in the country can actually participate in. I personally don't live in a city that has an ice rink.

PRlady
05-14-2011, 04:17 PM
That IMO is why skating has lost popularity in the US--not because of the public being fed up with judging scandals. Very few people in the US have ever heard there were judging scandals in the sport to begin with, much less have been turned off by it.

I'm not at all sure. The 2002 pairs scandal, since it took place at the Olys and at American Olys to boot, got enormous coverage. The most frequent comment I get from people finding out I'm a FS uber is....well, it's fixed, isn't it? (Along with the predictable comments about sequins and gay men.) People take it less seriously because the judging is so suspect. CoP didn't help either, skating lost a lot of its brand with 6.0.

I think not having a big female star after Kwan and to a lesser extent Sasha is hurting the sport right now, a lot. Ice dance is a niche discipline here, unlike those crazy Euros ;) and it's still a lady-centric sport.

And finally, my professional judgment is that the marketing and positioning of the sport in the U.S. just stinks. :P