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ChelleC
05-07-2011, 08:09 PM
I second that "Heeeeeeells yeah"!!!


I'll third it!

And as a reminder. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJorSTaB59I

Now, tell me a performance of that caliber would not be competitive with Chan and Kozuka.

ProgramerUSFS
05-07-2011, 08:13 PM
I am pretty sure this whole incident will be forgotten soon. What likely will be done is she or other Tom Z students won't be cut any slacks next year.

I don't think this is going to go away anytime soon. I am sure some in USFSA would like it to, and maybe Tom would as well. My sources tell me their are two camps right now in the org, one that wants to sweep it under the rug and the other that wants to set a tone for all to follow. Phil needs to keep on this, and do what he has done recently with the IOC and the USOC. There are some in the org that know if Phil pushes, they will look bad and are leaning toward change because they have to. My gut feeling is that if the USFSA does nothing, they will be drug out in the press and spanked really bad for the public to see. I know that Phil has more information that he has not released, which is why he is quite. He didn't just call the Flatt Team, Frank and the USFS officials, he called lots of people, and they talked. Can you imagine what the other coaches at Broadmoor told him in confidence. Its not going to be fun for some, if they do nothing. And I would imagine the longer Phil sits, the more people call him with information about Tom and what has been going down with his being in good favor.

victoriaheidi
05-07-2011, 08:16 PM
I don't think this is going to go away anytime soon. I am sure some in USFSA would like it to, and maybe Tom would as well. My sources tell me their are two camps right now in the org, one that wants to sweep it under the rug and the other that wants to set a tone for all to follow. Phil needs to keep on this, and do what he has done recently with the IOC and the USOC. There are some in the org that know if Phil pushes, they will look bad and are leaning toward change because they have to. My gut feeling is that if the USFSA does nothing, they will be drug out in the press and spanked really bad for the public to see. I know that Phil has more information that he has not released, which is why he is quite. He didn't just call the Flatt Team, Frank and the USFS officials, he called lots of people, and they talked. Can you imagine what the other coaches at Broadmoor told him in confidence. Its not going to be fun for some, if they do nothing. And I would imagine the longer Phil sits, the more people call him with information about Tom and what has been going down with his being in good favor.

Not only does Phil need to keep on this one, but I think that we, as fans, should not just let it go. I know we have no power, but if people are talking and they don't stop, USFS will have to do something.

I almost want Phil to write about this soon.

bek
05-07-2011, 08:27 PM
I'll third it!

And as a reminder. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJorSTaB59I

Now, tell me a performance of that caliber would not be competitive with Chan and Kozuka.

The issue isn't whether or not Jeremy is capable of skating at a high level-he is. The issue is whether or not Jeremy actually will deliver that type of performance at a Worlds/Olympics. He's a hot and cold skater, and its pretty clear the mental game is just not there. And Kozuka/Chan have about 6/7 years on Abbott-which does matter.

Sure I think its totally possible "hot Jeremy" could show up at a Worlds/Olympics and medal. But the USFSA would have to be fools to think of hot Jeremy and not consider "cold Jeremy" He's not a reliable skater, and its very clear that in the biggest competitions of the year he falters.

Its a real shame because Abbott is a beautiful skater, but at this point the USFSA would be fools if they weren't looking towards the future. Abbott will have to start skating consitently for them to think otherwise.

aftershocks
05-07-2011, 10:01 PM
OT:

I'll third it!

And as a reminder. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJorSTaB59I

Now, tell me a performance of that caliber would not be competitive with Chan and Kozuka.

Yes, and also these --some of my favorite performances by Abbott:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd_NRkwuqkI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzYhGRjWXPM&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcOqhhnwQpQ



The issue isn't whether or not Jeremy is capable of skating at a high level-he is. The issue is whether or not Jeremy actually will deliver that type of performance at a Worlds/Olympics. He's a hot and cold skater, and its pretty clear the mental game is just not there. And Kozuka/Chan have about 6/7 years on Abbott-which does matter.

Sure I think its totally possible "hot Jeremy" could show up at a Worlds/Olympics and medal. But the USFSA would have to be fools to think of hot Jeremy and not consider "cold Jeremy" He's not a reliable skater, and its very clear that in the biggest competitions of the year he falters.

Its a real shame because Abbott is a beautiful skater, but at this point the USFSA would be fools if they weren't looking towards the future. Abbott will have to start skating consitently for them to think otherwise.

Those who say "Heeeeells Yeah," bek, are answering judgejudy's question, which does not detract from your above comments. You may wish to add: "Heeeells Yeah, if Jeremy is on fire throughout a competition."

ITA with much of what you said, bek, but there's no doubt USFS are fools in any case, no matter why they decided .019 differential not to send their most experienced international skater to Worlds. They gambled and lost. I think USFS underestimated how Ryan would not be perceived as a top contender despite his quads, and that all three U.S. men would be burned by skate order and the judges' political placements, especially in the case of Richard and Ross who both had done well on the junior/ senior GP circuits. Yes, Abbott has faltered in some big competitions, and he's also won some big competitions. Obviously, the scrutiny of the Olympic spotlight is significant in Abbott's reputation with national and international judges dropping precipitously. Abbott will need to repair his standing and how he is viewed with some out of the ballpark programs and consistent performances. Kinda funny how some skaters tho' can flub programs, and their standing in terms of reputation and judges' scoring never seems to go down that far: I'm thinking of Chan, Oda, and Lambiel.

Therefore, its not just a skater's performances, but also IMHO, a mixture of perceived personality, how well your federation promotes you, and the amount of favor you've already established in the minds of the international judges, that has a bearing on scoring. In Abbott's case, by 2010 Olympics, he had not yet built up enough favor or rep with judges, although many fans and insiders likely expected him to contend for the podium--and that was an opportunity lost for him to do so and to come out of the shadow of Lysacek and Weir. Abbott was overshadowed by Lysacek and Weir, despite having won two national championships. IMO, the USFS also was more fully in Lysacek's corner and would have preferred Lysacek to win 2010 Nat'ls, but Abbott simply skated better. To his detriment, Abbott left too much on Nationals ice and didn't bring enough focus to the Olympics. Again however, the USFS attitude IMO was, "We have the heir (Lysacek), and the spare (Abbott). As long as Lysacek prevails and Abbott's there as a backup, we don't care what that colorful, annoying guy whatisname does -- too bad we had to send him instead of Bradley."

Hopefully, not going to Worlds this year, will turn in Abbott's favor. What Abbott has over Chan, and even Kosuka is a better, more sublime understanding of the music, and an innate ability to express it with his intricate, difficult choreography. I hate to even mention quads in this discussion, but the Plushy rules demand all pay attention to the quad power that factors into the scoring. However, for me, I just wanna see Abbott go out there and deliver great performances and conquer his personal demons, no matter what anyone thinks about his age or his competitiveness.

manleywoman
05-07-2011, 10:11 PM
I only have one complaint about Abbott, since otherwise I find him to be an amazing skater, great person, and a breath of fresh air:

And my complaint is this (assuming he skates well and makes no mistakes, of course): his SPs are always showstoppers, amazing pieces. Conversely, his LPs are very intellectual and introspective, and therefore hard to relate to for most people. Both have complex choreography, transitions, etc. But I think his LPs are just hard to grasp, and therefore he doesn't get the credit or attention that he could with the LP. I think if his LPs could be more upbeat (for lack of a better word right now) or at least had more of a crescendo at the end, he'd score better.

JMO.

dinakt
05-07-2011, 10:46 PM
I only have one complaint about Abbott, since otherwise I find him to be an amazing skater, great person, and a breath of fresh air:

And my complaint is this (assuming he skates well and makes no mistakes, of course): his SPs are always showstoppers, amazing pieces. Conversely, his LPs are very intellectual and introspective, and therefore hard to relate to for most people. Both have complex choreography, transitions, etc. But I think his LPs are just hard to grasp, and therefore he doesn't get the credit or attention that he could with the LP. I think if his LPs could be more upbeat (for lack of a better word right now) or at least had more of a crescendo at the end, he'd score better.

JMO.

I see you point; but those intellectual complex LPs are why I've been an ardent Abbott fan for years. So egotistically, I am grateful he did them. Jeremy might want to consider trying to combine his sophistication with some accessibility next year, with some music which is "easier to get". But then again, Abbott is not at all bombastic or linear, maybe simple music just does not suit.
This topic drifted a bit:lol:

mgobluegirl
05-07-2011, 11:11 PM
Rippon can't even land a triple axel anymore.

Have you seen him skate recently or are you just saying this based on his performances at Nationals?

Sylvia
05-07-2011, 11:24 PM
Have you seen him skate recently or are you just saying this based on his performances at Nationals?
I assume this negative perception is based on Rippon's low percentage of 3A cleanly landed at Nationals (2nd 3A in his FS, so 1 out of 3) and Four Continents (0 for 2). Japan Open (FS) and Skate Canada were his two best competitions landing 3A this past season.

People who have seen him practice since April have reported that Rippon has been landing his 3A much more consistently (ETA: I heard he landed 3A & all other jumps in his show programs at the Cricket Club recently) but, of course, the true test will be in competitions this coming season.

aftershocks
05-07-2011, 11:55 PM
Yes, dinakt, this thread is drifting back and forth on topic and OT. Probably a new thread should be started to discuss Abbott and the U.S. men. :)

You and manleywoman make interesting points, dinakt. I think Abbott's gorgeous Adagio in G Minor sp (first link in my above post), was also in the category of intellectual and introspective in its choreo but the music was just absolutely beautiful and uplifting, so maybe that is what made that performance seem more accessible and showstopping. I agree that Abbott should consider moving in a new direction and finding music that not only suits his sensibilities and intricate choreo, but that also makes a louder statement. Its always a good idea to try something different, stretch oneself, move out of one's comfort zone, while still authentically expressing who you are and making an impact with the audience.

I learned from one of your podcasts manleywoman (your interview with Abbott's Mom) about how much Abbott truly understands music, and that he often selects and cuts his own music. Maybe he should seek assistance in looking at some different types of music for both his programs this season that will be unexpected and present his personality in a new way. I love Jeremy's thoughtful, introspective qualities which I don't think he needs to lose. He just needs to also show the strong, tough, determined, resilient, humorous side of himself. Too often people think that being thoughtful, quiet and serious equates to being soft, but that's not necessarily true -- sometimes quite the opposite.

centerpt1
05-08-2011, 12:22 AM
seeing as how we are totally off topic.....

Hopefully Abbott will be able to get feeling comfortable on his skates- he's got to fix that problem first.

Then- I see it differently. The type judge (and Fed) that prefers a Bradley style is never going to go for an Abbott style, no matter what.

Abbott has developed a style over the last few years. It's becoming a signature style, and it's his point of view. (examples: LP 09-10, SP 09-10, Exib's 9-10 and 10-11) This last season, he tried two programs out of his style. Neither worked. I think he should quit trying to play a movie character(LP this year), or try a style that is just not him (Najarro program).

The prejudice against him will be there no matter what. So why not go with his point of view, and his strengths. He seems to know what they are (the exibs he's done for himself)

So- he should choose choreographers that get his style, and will support his self development in that direction. He should pick music he can really relate to. Then- meet the CoP criterea.

He can't make prejudiced judges like him. He can make the most of what is becoming his signature style.

triple_toe
05-08-2011, 12:29 AM
I learned from one of your podcasts manleywoman (your interview with Abbott's Mom) about how much Abbott truly understands music, and that he often selects and cuts his own music.

:yikes: I sure hope that his waltz program from a few years back is not an example of him demonstrating his understanding of music by cutting it himself, because those cuts were heinous! :scream:

Back on topic, I honestly feel sorry for Rachael. Yes, she's legally an adult, but I'm sure Tom had an incredible amount of influence over her and played a large role in her decision to go. The fact that she officially "severed all ties" with Tom as soon as she got home is quite telling, IMO.

Triple Butz
05-08-2011, 12:31 AM
I only have one complaint about Abbott, since otherwise I find him to be an amazing skater, great person, and a breath of fresh air:

And my complaint is this (assuming he skates well and makes no mistakes, of course): his SPs are always showstoppers, amazing pieces. Conversely, his LPs are very intellectual and introspective, and therefore hard to relate to for most people. Both have complex choreography, transitions, etc. But I think his LPs are just hard to grasp, and therefore he doesn't get the credit or attention that he could with the LP. I think if his LPs could be more upbeat (for lack of a better word right now) or at least had more of a crescendo at the end, he'd score better.

JMO.
I understand your critique, but it reminds me of when Peter Carruthers told Michelle Kwan that skating to Bartok was a mistake and she needs to "do something more mainstream to make it more familiar to people." Bartok was born in the 19th century. He used Sonata form. Yes there are dissonances that you don't hear in Mozart. If Peter could stop being such an ignoramus, and make himself a little more familiar with the sounds, maybe he would be able to understand how expressive and communicative they are.

I understand that most people no longer have the patience, or the attention span to sit through a classical concert, and would rather go see Rihanna lip synch to the same four chords over and over again, but that bores me to death. So do the Carmens, Swan Lakes, and recycled choreography of most skaters.

Rather than ask Abbott to dumb down his programs, I would challenge the audiences to look a little bit closer and listen a little bit harder and maybe learn a little bit about music and modern dance.

Sylvia
05-08-2011, 12:47 AM
FYI, "olympic" has just started a new thread in the Trash Can to discuss the U.S. men in the off season: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=78766

aftershocks
05-08-2011, 12:50 AM
Yes, Triple Butz, I agree that Peter Carruthers was wrong to criticize the different music Michelle used. In Abbott's case, I don't think he needs to "dumb down" his music choices in order to find music that makes a bigger impact.

ITA with your views generally, centerpt1. For Abbott to challenge himself with different music, however, does not necessarily mean going against his signature style, just finding a different way to express it.

And, a new thread should be started ... Great, thanks Sylvia and olympic!