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View Full Version : Flatt hurt for Worlds but skates anyways !



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nerdycool
05-04-2011, 09:08 PM
If the girls' roles had been reversed, if it had been Mirai who skated hurt and Rachael who didn't get the call, would we be having this same discussion? I bet people would be praising Mirai for her bravery and courage and "toughing it out."I doubt it, because Rachael is "the rock" and if Mirai had denied a healthy Rachael an opportunity to skate well enough to get back 3 spots, we would still be having this discussion. I don't think it would be as controversial though, because of the whole coach factor.

Yeah, some of Frank's students have competed with similar injuries (Kwan, Lysacek), but it was always assumed it was the skater's decision. With Tom, all of that is in doubt because of Farris' Nationals, where it was made clear that it was Tom that made the call on whether he skated or not. I'm not saying I think Tom made the decision for Rachael, but the doubt is there, just the same.

IceAlisa
05-04-2011, 09:24 PM
Yes, Lysacek and Kwan both competed with toe stress fractures but when you consider the physics of jumps, you could see that it's likely that a tibia fracture would be a more severe injury.

Wyliefan
05-04-2011, 09:25 PM
I doubt it, because Rachael is "the rock" and if Mirai had denied a healthy Rachael an opportunity to skate well enough to get back 3 spots, we would still be having this discussion. I don't think it would be as controversial though, because of the whole coach factor.


I think so too. There'd be a lot of hubbub about how Rachael would have GUARANTEED us those three spots if only she'd been allowed to compete.

RD
05-04-2011, 09:27 PM
Healthy Flatt would have been good enough IMO, as 4CCs showed. However, this whole injury thing is complicating things a bit. Just bad luck for the US once again.

If Flatt does choose to continue skating, wouldn't surprise me if she finds herself in 3rd/4th next Nationals and unable to go to Worlds due to her own undoing (like Wagner in 2010, Nagasu in 2011)

AxelAnnie
05-04-2011, 11:20 PM
Having just watched the Farris video I can totally believe that. O.o If he were a racehorse trainer he'd have lost his license by now for sending blatantly unsound animals to the gate. That kid was clearly in pain the whole time and in agony when he came off. Is Tom Z blind? Or just an idiot?

No kidding on that one! In come of the classes at bigger horse shows, top 7 competitors have to jog their horses in so that the judges can make sure the horse is sound. Limpy horse.....no ribbon!

And, competing with a stress fracture in a bone in your foot....is very different than competing with a stress fracture in the large bone in your lower leg. IMO (and everyone else's!)

MR-FAN
05-05-2011, 12:38 AM
Please enlighten me. As far as I know, the only two times she admitted to have competed while injured were GPF and Worlds this season. Which one did you consider 'great'? :shuffle:


SA

Louise
05-05-2011, 04:37 AM
If I am not mistaken, HIPAA applies to medical records but not to communications between physician and patient (except insofar as the communications are reported in the records). I would expect the USFSA to require its elite skaters to waive not only their rights under HIPAA but also their privilege to keep physician-patient communications confidential.

I absolutely do not conceive of any skater, parent, or guardian giving up their rights under HIPAA to the USFS. That is absurd. Really.

Vagabond
05-05-2011, 06:10 AM
I absolutely do not conceive of any skater, parent, or guardian giving up their rights under HIPAA to the USFS. That is absurd. Really.

Why is it absurd? Figure skating isn't a sport like golf, where the competitors are professionals, and if someone like Tiger Woods wants to wants to play with a torn ligament and a double stress fracture in his left tibia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_woods#2008:_Injury-shortened_season), that's his problem and his alone.

The USFSA spends thousands of dollars funding elite skaters. This funding goes beyond any prize money. It includes money that is to be used for coaches and choreographers, ice time, and traveling to competitions. It's reasonable for the USFSA to take some steps to make sure that it isn't simply pouring money down the drain and that its coaches and doctors aren't causing young skaters to suffer long-term harm.

I understand the desire to maintain one's privacy. I assume that if the USFSA requires a confidentiality waiver, it in turn agrees not to disclose any confidential information to third parties. Regardless, if the USFSA does require a waiver, anyone who doesn't want to sign the waiver -- or whose parents don't want to sign a waiver -- is free to stop skating and do something else. Like take up golf.

victoriaheidi
05-05-2011, 06:27 AM
The USFSA spends thousands of dollars funding elite skaters. This funding goes beyond any prize money. It includes money that is to be used for coaches and choreographers, ice time, and traveling to competitions. It's reasonable for the USFSA to take some steps to make sure that it isn't simply pouring money down the drain and that its coaches and doctors aren't causing young skaters to suffer long-term harm.

I understand the desire to maintain one's privacy. I assume that if the USFSA requires a confidentiality waiver, it in turn agrees not to disclose any confidential information to third parties. Regardless, if the USFSA does require a waiver, anyone who doesn't want to sign the waiver -- or whose parents don't want to sign a waiver -- is free to stop skating and do something else. Like take up golf.

Here's what I'm guessing it looks like on the other side:

1. Skaters are probably required to have one annual physical with a set procedure (devised by USFS), the results of which are to be disclosed to the federation.
2. I'm going to assume that they can't demand that what is said between the patient and the doctor be disclosed, but I'm also going to assume that only doctors appointments that go through the team doctor must be REPORTED, but no information from that will be disclosed, unless the federation requests it and obtains some kind of permission (which may be obtained at the beginning of the season, too?).
3. I'm also going to guess that private doctors appointments are simply private.

I've come up with this because I'm looking at the circumstances as a few things:
1. A routine checkup probably wouldn't involve a tibia x-ray and probably happened at the beginning of the season.
2. If Rachael's doctor was a team doctor, he may have been required to report that he saw Rachael, but not WHY he saw Rachael. The fed could have seen that as a check-up and nothing more. they may not have noticed/cared (as far as I'm concerned, that's where the real problem is-my system that I've devised kind of makes sense, imo, and I'd see a doctor's appt the Friday before Worlds as a red flag).
3. Who's going to monitor these?

I've come up with this from some of the facts tossed around in her case, but it is by no means any sort of indicator as to what USFS uses. Please understand that before you comment.

It was also a really nice way to avoid the mounds of AP studying I'm supposed to be doing.

Aceon6
05-05-2011, 12:56 PM
2. If Rachael's doctor was a team doctor, he may have been required to report that he saw Rachael, but not WHY he saw Rachael. The fed could have seen that as a check-up and nothing more. they may not have noticed/cared (as far as I'm concerned, that's where the real problem is-my system that I've devised kind of makes sense, imo, and I'd see a doctor's appt the Friday before Worlds as a red flag).

If pro sports are any indicator, the team doctor is required to report the status of the athlete to the organization that is paying the doctor. For example, the Celtics team doc reports Shaq's status to Danny Ainge (or his designee) directly. If USFS hasn't set it up this way, shame on them.

Carolla5501
05-05-2011, 01:28 PM
I don't think ER doctors routinely go rummaging through people's medical files before they treat a patient. I'm sorry but no way would I give anyone carte blanche to raid my medical files or grill my doctors whenever they feel like it.

An ER doctor, or other medical professional, can access your medical information to provide treatment... (HIPPA is not designed to endanger you)

The hospital, physicain, clinic etc can access the medical record for purposes of obtaining payment.

They may not provide data to the press, USFSA, the parents of a skater over the age of 18, you, me, or any other bizarre person just because "we want to know if Rachel" can skate without Rachel's express premisison (I am assuming she is over 18, haven't checked)

The adult bringing the child in for treatment with the authorization is NOT the same as allowing the adult access to the medical records. I take my Girl Scouts in for treatment, that does not give me many other 'rights' to know their medical outcomes etc...

SLIVER
05-05-2011, 02:16 PM
Well Im sure this has been said in the thread earlier but I watched all of US nationals this year and as a non US citizen who couldnt care less whether Rachel, Mirai or Joe Bloggs win, I find the USFSA worlds selection absolutely ludicrous and its staggering that some have been defending it.

Ryan Bradley is fun but please give me a break and leave out the 8's he got for PCS at US Nats..They scored him the same if not better than Abbott in the PCS, never, no way, no how...When Abbott then misses the podium by a hair you do not then proceed to leave him off the team because 'its fair'. Worlds is actually about the skater and the whole team and you send your best skaters to improve your country's chances year in year out. NOT ONE other Fed would have left Abbott off the team for such a small margin. In fact in most countires Abbott would have won the title simply on the lead he would have accumulated after a fantastic short but not in the US.
Kudos that they dont do what the Russians do at Nationals and elect a winner before the event but at least select the right team after. Heck worlds were in May have a skate off and reassess some selections. Had Abbott bombed leave him off the team but really how many errors did he committ? I would bet my house that he would have won the SP and LP in any other country as a former champion, GPF winner and world medal contender. Shaky or not he was always going to place better than the rest at worlds.

Ditto for the ladies, Rachel Flatt the 2nd best skater in the US?? Really??

The USFSA have only themselves to blame, when a skater gets a massive reaction from the crowd they pull out their big PCS. Its not a show guys, its competitive skating, the World team selection was all wrong this year.

berthesghost
05-05-2011, 03:08 PM
^ USFS has always had several "habits" in their selection process.

They love to teach complacent skaters a lesson by leaving them off world teams so that they will get hungry and fight harder next year. This usually involves sending younger up-and-coming skaters in their place to drive home the point that all stars are replaceable so get over yourself.. you need us more than we need you. As bizarre as it is, it seems to often work (Lipinski vs. Bobeck in 96, Kwaitkowski vs Harding in 93, Weir vs. Bradley in 09, etc...)

This of course doesn't change due to the rules either, as Russia and other Federations with different rules do the same (Slut in 99 etc...)

mtnskater
05-05-2011, 04:00 PM
What SLIVER said x 10,000! I've been saying this for years on end to deaf ears. Year after year after year USFS has been failing to consistently support and promote our best skaters on the international stage because they rely on fluke results at Nationals and pay no attention to the skaters international competitive record. As a result our world team continues to under perform at worlds. We loose spots and fans because we develop few stars. I am mystified at those who keep defending this practice too.

Triple Butz
05-05-2011, 10:26 PM
Well Im sure this has been said in the thread earlier but I watched all of US nationals this year and as a non US citizen who couldnt care less whether Rachel, Mirai or Joe Bloggs win, I find the USFSA worlds selection absolutely ludicrous and its staggering that some have been defending it.

Ryan Bradley is fun but please give me a break and leave out the 8's he got for PCS at US Nats..They scored him the same if not better than Abbott in the PCS, never, no way, no how...When Abbott then misses the podium by a hair you do not then proceed to leave him off the team because 'its fair'. Worlds is actually about the skater and the whole team and you send your best skaters to improve your country's chances year in year out. NOT ONE other Fed would have left Abbott off the team for such a small margin. In fact in most countires Abbott would have won the title simply on the lead he would have accumulated after a fantastic short but not in the US.
Kudos that they dont do what the Russians do at Nationals and elect a winner before the event but at least select the right team after. Heck worlds were in May have a skate off and reassess some selections. Had Abbott bombed leave him off the team but really how many errors did he committ? I would bet my house that he would have won the SP and LP in any other country as a former champion, GPF winner and world medal contender. Shaky or not he was always going to place better than the rest at worlds.

Ditto for the ladies, Rachel Flatt the 2nd best skater in the US?? Really??

The USFSA have only themselves to blame, when a skater gets a massive reaction from the crowd they pull out their big PCS. Its not a show guys, its competitive skating, the World team selection was all wrong this year.
YES.
I don't have rep points to give, but if I did, you'd be swimming in them.