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View Full Version : Flatt hurt for Worlds but skates anyways !



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Cyn
05-04-2011, 12:53 PM
the USFSA should really come up w/ an alternative system for selecting the Worlds / Olympic team.

Perhaps, they could implement a system where Nats scores are worth, say, 75% of a skater's score, but factor in an average of the skater's scores from ISU events in the Fall worth 25% [just throwing made-up percentages out there] to determine the Worlds / Olympic team. This could give a bump to skaters who maybe had a hiccup at Nats but are otherwise strong skaters internationally. In case of injured skaters debuting at Nats [it happens], their score at Nats would count as 100%. It may also encourage skaters to compete in the Fall.

OR

Select the team at Nats but in special circumstances where a top skater finishes barely in 4th, give them 'new life' and use 4CCs as a determining factor

Considering that the 4th place finisher does receive a medal (pewter) at Nationals, this does make sense IMO.

olympic
05-04-2011, 01:06 PM
Considering that the 4th place finisher does receive a medal (pewter) at Nationals, this does make sense IMO.

JSF used my 1st scenario in '06. the Russian Fed. used my 2d scenario about a decade ago when they were top-heavy with lady talent [Slute, Bute, Volchkova, Soldatova, Sokolova]: I think it was 1999 - 2000 season - Slute and Bute were sent to Worlds, but they asked Volchkova to meet a standard at Euros in order to be sent over Soldatova who beat Volchkova at the GPF (yet Volchkova beat her at Russian Nats). In a sense, they were both Worlds top 10 skaters who were even at that point in the 99-00 season]

People have pointed out re my 1st scenario that Miki bombed in Torino anyway, but that was one instance and shouldn't cause us not to seriously look at this system. In the US case this past year at Nats, Jeremy had a much much bigger track record than Miner. I'm not sure about Dornbush, but Abbott probably could've beaten Miner's marks in Moscow

berthesghost
05-04-2011, 01:49 PM
... I just hope people won't say she did it out of stubbornness and/or selfishness. ....Sorry, but this is exactly what many people have been saying ever since she finished her LP and dropped the bomb in her post skate interview. And it's not just fans saying it either. Right or wrong, this is a blunder she is going to have to spin her way out of big time.

When skaters innocently take cold medicine, they still get banned from skating, no matter how nice they are or how many good intentions they had when breaking rules. There's an investigation now, so this isn't going to just go away for her.

Ziggy
05-04-2011, 02:46 PM
I think it would be a dangerous thing to diminish the importance of the US nationals results. The USFS probably wants to make it clear to everyone that this results are the one that matters, thus all the pressure built in this competition. Of course, it may not always insure that the best overall season US skaters go further, but it shuts up all those that don't see figure skating as a sport with distinct criteria selection. I can already hear people say: in athletics we have this criteria; in swimming we have this criteria so why can't figure skating act like a real sport?!? :rolleyes:

Yes, I do appreciate that at least USFS is being consistent and upholds a clear and transparent standard.

I would however make one crucial amendment to it:

US Nationals should decide who goes to 4CC.

But 4CC should decide who goes to Worlds (or at least the second/third spot).

Why?

Because it's different to perform abroad and it's different to perform at home.

Because international judges are going to mark you VERY DIFFERENTLY from national judges (I mean we all agree that US, Canadian and Russian Nationals judging is ridiculous).

Polymer Bob
05-04-2011, 03:03 PM
US Nationals should decide who goes to 4CC.

But 4CC should decide who goes to Worlds (or at least the second/third spot).

Why?

Because it's different to perform abroad and it's different to perform at home.

Because international judges are going to mark you VERY DIFFERENTLY from national judges (I mean we all agree that US, Canadian and Russian Nationals judging is ridiculous).

This is what we were saying 2 years ago when Alissa and Rachael ( team U.S.A. ) sat in the audience at 4CC and watched the scrub skate in the exhibition. It does seem that 4CC results tend to mirror World results.
I don't think the USFSA will go for it however.

Sylvia
05-04-2011, 03:11 PM
US Nationals should decide who goes to 4CC.
ETA: I decided to move my reply post to a more relevant thread in the Worlds forum: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3170981#post3170981

Angela-Fan
05-04-2011, 03:13 PM
Yeah. And I don't remember any outcry over Ryan skating with a broken foot last worlds either.

I'm not a fan of Flatt. At all. But a lady who went through what must have been a humbling and devastating worlds doesn't deserve all this hatred for the mere fact that Nagasu is so loved (don't fool yourselves, you may want to believe your feelings are based on principle, but they're not)

Rachael skated injured before and delivered great performances. I'm sure she believed she can pull it off, and she didn't. Others who weren't injured and were 100% prepared had worse showings. Noone can predict what will happen in this sport. Much as I love Mirai, she lost her spot with her Nationals LP performance.

:respec:

Thais
05-04-2011, 03:33 PM
Yes, I do appreciate that at least USFS is being consistent and upholds a clear and transparent standard.

I would however make one crucial amendment to it:

US Nationals should decide who goes to 4CC.

But 4CC should decide who goes to Worlds (or at least the second/third spot).

Why?

Because it's different to perform abroad and it's different to perform at home.

Because international judges are going to mark you VERY DIFFERENTLY from national judges (I mean we all agree that US, Canadian and Russian Nationals judging is ridiculous).

And one might say that it's different to skate in front of your home crowd or that it's different to compete against skaters from other countries. No one can anticipate how a skater will perform at a certain competition. One might do well at the 4CC and be a disaster at the world championships. And then what? What will be the next way to ensure the "right" person is sent to the most important competition?
National Championships should be the place where the National team is decided. This is its purpose. And this team should represent the country further on to the international competitions.

Cheylana
05-04-2011, 03:55 PM
For better or worse, the USFS seems to like sending its B team to 4CCs as a consolation prize for not going to Worlds and to give the B team experience, points, rep, etc. It allowed skaters like Katy Taylor and Adam Rippon to win titles.

Also, the 4CC skateoff idea could maybe work in non-Olympic years, but not in an Olympic year, because 4CCs is squshed in between US Nationals and the Olympics. Not enough time to rest and recover before or after 4CCs. Could you imagine the uproar if Evan and Johnny had been forced into a 4CC skateoff with Ryan Bradley for Olympic spots last year? :eek: :lol:

Thais
05-04-2011, 03:57 PM
Sorry, but this is exactly what many people have been saying ever since she finished her LP and dropped the bomb in her post skate interview. And it's not just fans saying it either. Right or wrong, this is a blunder she is going to have to spin her way out of big time.

When skaters innocently take cold medicine, they still get banned from skating, no matter how nice they are or how many good intentions they had when breaking rules. There's an investigation now, so this isn't going to just go away for her.

An investigation?!? Wow, this is serious and I still don't get why it is so serious. We've seen or heard commentators talk about skaters that compete while injured, so this shouldn't be that shocking.
I remember Sasha Cohen competing at a cheesfest after a world championship and saying she was happy she was able to skate at all, after all the pain she had felt over the last weeks (or something like that). She doubled pretty much every jump (if I remember correctly), nevertheless she skated. I think it was important for her to be there, and I'm sure it was the same for Rachel.
Yes, comparing a cheesfest to a world championship may not be the best example. All I'm saying is that usually when things go well we're like: Wow, she did all that while being injured. And now we're all like: she stole the place of someone else.

In any case, I hope Rachel and Mirai and Franck C. will all be able to move on.

IceAlisa
05-04-2011, 04:04 PM
Cheesefest is different from Worlds. I don't believe there is an alternate that's waiting to take the spot, so you are right, it's not a good example.

However, a fracture of the tibia of the push-off leg is likely to be far more serious IMO than any of the injuries that have been cited so far. You should look at the skeletal structure of the lower extremities to realize just how critical it could be.

What I would like to hear is the following: the diagnosing physician likely had a recommendation WRT to Rachael's ability to compete at Worlds. What was it? I would very much like to know.

LilJen
05-04-2011, 04:07 PM
However, a fracture of the tibia of the push-off leg is likely to be far more serious IMO than any of the injuries that have been cited so far. You should look at the skeletal structure of the lower extremities to realize just how critical it could be.

What I would like to hear is the following: the diagnosing physician likely had a recommendation WRT to Rachael's ability to compete at Worlds. What was it? I would very much like to know.

Me too. It's also her LANDING LEG. Even with a "tiny" stress fracture, the amount of force placed on it with every landing is pretty extreme.

Glad Jeremy got out of there while he was still healthy. . . :shuffle:

danceronice
05-04-2011, 04:14 PM
Regarding Abbot and using 4CC/international rep, his performance when being sent *as champion* to international events doesn't argue for his bumping someone. He did well at 4CCs--but that's after not being sent to Worlds and knowing it, while when they've sent him to Worlds and Olys before, as the national champion, no less, he tanked. Given the 'newbies' got better results than Bradley, bumping them to have two probably-not-long-term skaters on the team instead of one, with the add-on being one with a history of failing to perform at Worlds, makes no sense at all the first year of a new cycle.

As far as skaters wanting to push it when they know they're hurt, of course that's understandable, but as mentioned--pounding on a stress facture is a great way to turn it into a compound fracture, which is going to hurt a lot more than just your medal chances. As for skaters skating with concussions,:eek:! That's a great way to potentially die or end up a vegetable. Even in eventing, a sport where they wear helmets for the cross-country phase, they've had to institute a rule of one fall and eliminated, because even WITH a helmet, you can get concussed, and the reality is someone with a concussion is not necessarily making good decisions. Yes, it sucks, epecially if you're not hurt, but better you drop out before you make an impaired decision a few minutes later that gets you killed. In skating, where there's no kind of head protection and a wicked hard surface? At that point a coach with any moral compass has to step in and say no and the fed should back that up. Pain, injury, and especially head trauma doesn't necessarily lend itself to good decision making.

Cheylana
05-04-2011, 04:21 PM
An investigation?!? Wow, this is serious and I still don't get why it is so serious.
Well, many of us think it is serious, for the reasons stated earlier in this thread.

Anyway, an investigation doesn't necessarily mean someone will be punished. The USFS is gathering facts and may consider changing some of its policies, or implementing new ones, when it comes to skater injuries.


Cheesefest is different from Worlds. I don't believe there is an alternate that's waiting to take the spot, so you are right, it's not a good example.

However, a fracture of the tibia of the push-off leg is likely to be far more serious IMO than any of the injuries that have been cited so far. You should look at the skeletal structure of the lower extremities to realize just how critical it could be.

What I would like to hear is the following: the diagnosing physician likely had a recommendation WRT to Rachael's ability to compete at Worlds. What was it? I would very much like to know.
I think Tom Z said they made the decision "in consultation" with the relevant physician. But you're right, he didn't elaborate on the doctor's specific recommendations. Maybe it went:

Physician: I don't think Rachael should skate at Worlds next week.
Tom Z: Will she die if she skates?
Physician: No, but...
Tom Z: Well, then it is settled. Rachael will skate. It'll build her character. Like Joshua Farris.

danceronice
05-04-2011, 04:27 PM
Physician: I don't think Rachael should skate at Worlds next week.
Tom Z: Will she die if she skates?
Physician: No, but...
Tom Z: Well, then it is settled. Rachael will skate. It'll build her character. Like Joshua Farris.

Having just watched the Farris video I can totally believe that. O.o If he were a racehorse trainer he'd have lost his license by now for sending blatantly unsound animals to the gate. That kid was clearly in pain the whole time and in agony when he came off. Is Tom Z blind? Or just an idiot?