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View Full Version : Flatt hurt for Worlds but skates anyways !



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Chris_E
05-03-2011, 07:21 PM
I'm pretty sure the triple axel and lutz/loop thing was a joke... I think he was just trying to make a point about how ready she was as an alternate.

Actually, I don't think that is a joke, she has been seen practicing triple axels at either Nationals or 4CC.

Jarrett
05-03-2011, 07:23 PM
I'm pretty sure the triple axel and lutz/loop thing was a joke... I think he was just trying to make a point about how ready she was as an alternate.

I would have taken them as a joke if he said she was landing quads. :rofl: But the triple axel she has been attempting for a while and last month was joking they were still a half turn cheated. Her triple loop is one of her better jumps and would make sense to repeat the loop in the program and not the triple toe.

Just imagine

Triple Axel
Triple Lutz/Triple Loop
Triple Loop
Triple Lutz
Triple Flip (Lip) :(
Double Axel/Triple Toe
Double Axel/Double Toe/Double Loop

I'd dig it. :P

Aceon6
05-03-2011, 07:31 PM
All the U.S. coaches and skaters are fully aware of the importance and necessity of notifying specific people at USFS if/when they are injured (there is a clear process in place), especially before an international competition. Of course it becomes a judgement call when a skater really wants to compete through/despite an injury (I would assume that most skaters would elect to do this if they could -- many have an extremely high tolerance for pain) and the coach feels they can still compete effectively enough (as Zakrajsek told Hersh). USFS cannot step in unless they are notified and, in this case, it appears they were unaware of Flatt's injury until she was actually at Worlds (too late for Nagasu to be summoned).

I think the judgement call part needs to change so that all injuries are reported, with the competitor notifying USFS if they're probable, doubtful, or out. In Flatt's situation, early on in the week it would have been "shin, probable, toe jumps impacted" followed by the update on the 22nd "stress fracture, game time decision, toe jumps severely impacted" With that info public, Frank and Mirai would have been on standby early in the week and ready to go on Friday should USFS notify them.

How USFS would enforce it might be hard to work out, but they do control the envelope money. With so much emphasis now on analyzing injury patterns, you'd think USFS would at least be interested in collecting the data.

smarts1
05-03-2011, 07:32 PM
Hmm, yeah, one way I look at it, it seems true (cuz yeah, she has been practicing triple axels way back to when she was with Charlene), but then it's a just like, really?

Jarrett
05-03-2011, 07:37 PM
Hmm, yeah, one way I look at it, it seems true (cuz yeah, she has been practicing triple axels way back to when she was with Charlene), but then it's a just like, really?

I think most people thought that (like, really?) when she was practicing them at Nationals this year when was wasn't in top form. 4CC she looked pretty good though and if she was actually training as an alternate all the way into now I think it would be possible to be landing them now.

RD
05-03-2011, 07:37 PM
I think the judgement call part needs to change so that all injuries are reported, with the competitor notifying USFS if they're probable, doubtful, or out. In Flatt's situation, early on in the week it would have been "shin, probable, toe jumps impacted" followed by the update on the 22nd "stress fracture, game time decision, toe jumps severely impacted" With that info public, Frank and Mirai would have been on standby early in the week and ready to go on Friday should USFS notify them.

Ah, there we go. Good idea and I like that implementation. I'll throw in that it might be a regular thing, perhaps every other week leading up to Worlds, with a report required the final week before the event? Perhaps for some consistency they can apply this to Nationals as well (give alternates for the competition a heads up).


How USFS would enforce it might be hard to work out, but they do control the envelope money. With so much emphasis now on analyzing injury patterns, you'd think USFS would at least be interested in collecting the data.

True, the enforcement part of it is easier said than done. How do you punish violators of policy? A ban may seem too harsh.

LilJen
05-03-2011, 07:47 PM
I think the judgement call part needs to change so that all injuries are reported, with the competitor notifying USFS if they're probable, doubtful, or out. In Flatt's situation, early on in the week it would have been "shin, probable, toe jumps impacted" followed by the update on the 22nd "stress fracture, game time decision, toe jumps severely impacted" With that info public, Frank and Mirai would have been on standby early in the week and ready to go on Friday should USFS notify them.

How USFS would enforce it might be hard to work out, but they do control the envelope money. With so much emphasis now on analyzing injury patterns, you'd think USFS would at least be interested in collecting the data.

I like that idea. Also, you'd think that since this is Rachael's LANDING LEG, *all* of her jumps would be affected to some degree.

As far as enforcement goes: Well, USFS is pretty much around the corner from World Arena. Can't they send spies? :P

PDilemma
05-03-2011, 08:00 PM
True, the enforcement part of it is easier said than done. How do you punish violators of policy? A ban may seem too harsh.

Any ban should be on the coach. It is the coach's responsibility to do the reporting. The skater shouldn't take the consequences.

skatemommy
05-03-2011, 08:02 PM
[QUOTE=LilJen;3169889As far as enforcement goes: Well, USFS is pretty much around the corner from World Arena. Can't they send spies? :P[/QUOTE]

I can remember quotes from Johnny Weir complaining about monitoring visits. Perhaps only the "problem children" get monitored?

Sylvia
05-03-2011, 08:18 PM
I can remember quotes from Johnny Weir complaining about monitoring visits. Perhaps only the "problem children" get monitored?
All U.S. Team A envelope skaters and their programs used to be monitored at their home rinks by a technical caller/judges before the start of the competitive season (usually in September). As of last season, all of the U.S. Grand Prix skaters and their programs are now monitored in August at Champs Champ in Colorado Springs. The rest of the skaters (JGP, Senior B) are monitored for competition readiness at designated summer competitions (Liberty, Skate Detroit, Glacier Falls, Indy Challenge, Lake Placid Dance).

ETA: IIRC, there used to be specific monitoring of Team USA skaters before Worlds but I'm not sure if this happens anymore.

taf2002
05-03-2011, 08:24 PM
As far as giving up a spot for the team, I don't think most skaters see it as a team sport. Michelle held on to her spot at the Olympics until the very last minute which didn't do Emily Hughes much good.

Let me lay one thing to rest not that it will do much good for the hardheaded. Emily Hughes DID NOT earn a trip to the Olys. Everyone knew Michelle would get a bye which she had earned by years of good placements & earning spots. So everyone KNEW they were skating for 2 spots. Emily was in 2nd after the short. She blew her LP herself. And let's get real. How many people would be in her corner if they hadn't bought into the "oh it's so cute, 1 sister the OGM & her little sister trying to match her" hype. Emily rode on Sarah's coattails for 5 yrs.

I was at 2003 Nationals. Emily, as a jr, got a lot of attention there & a lot of hype. Her results up to that point did not warrent any of the hype but yet she got as much as what I remember Tara & Michelle getting their last year of jrs. IMO a skater of Emily's limited ability should get down on her knees & thank God she ever got to Worlds or to the Olys. Besides, a huge number of Olympians don't get to attend the opening ceremony due to their competition happening the next day. They seem to survive just fine.

Besides Michelle did not hold onto her spot till the very last minute. The morning after her painful practice I woke up to the news that she had withdrawn. And btw, even you called it "her spot".

aliceanne
05-03-2011, 08:42 PM
Let me lay one thing to rest not that it will do much good for the hardheaded. Emily Hughes DID NOT earn a trip to the Olys. Everyone knew Michelle would get a bye which she had earned by years of good placements & earning spots. So everyone KNEW they were skating for 2 spots. Emily was in 2nd after the short. She blew her LP herself. And let's get real. How many people would be in her corner if they hadn't bought into the "oh it's so cute, 1 sister the OGM & her little sister trying to match her" hype. Emily rode on Sarah's coattails for 5 yrs.

I was at 2003 Nationals. Emily, as a jr, got a lot of attention there & a lot of hype. Her results up to that point did not warrent any of the hype but yet she got as much as what I remember Tara & Michelle getting their last year of jrs. IMO a skater of Emily's limited ability should get down on her knees & thank God she ever got to Worlds or to the Olys. Besides, a huge number of Olympians don't get to attend the opening ceremony due to their competition happening the next day. They seem to survive just fine.

Besides Michelle did not hold onto her spot till the very last minute. The morning after her painful practice I woke up to the news that she had withdrawn. And btw, even you called it "her spot".

You missed my point entirely. Another poster stated that Michelle gave up her spot for the benefit of the U.S. team. I disagreed. If Michelle had been thinking of the team she would have given it up earlier so the alternate could have been better prepared. She was thinking of her own career by hanging on until the bitter end. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, I'm saying that it isn't customary for figure skaters to base their decisions on the good of the U.S. team or to consider themselves teamplayers.

taf2002
05-03-2011, 08:49 PM
You're right, she should have given it up before she reinjured herself. And because Emily & Michelle are pretty much interchangeble.

IceJunkie
05-03-2011, 09:32 PM
To be fair, Kwan kept her condition transparent and gave up her spot right away when she learnt of the diagnosis in Turino. (but then again she had already been to the Olympics twice, much like Flatt had been to Worlds twice...)

Well, not to turn this into a Michelle thread (because we all know how that goes), she kept her *groin injury* transparent. Not the fact there was a major underlying condition that caused her groin problems. Fact is she had been dealing with a major hip problem that Arutunian disclosed in some Russian interview a few years back. IIRC, he said in the two years going into Turin, Michelle would be in such pain she couldn't even sit or walk normally if it flared up. She definitely shouldn't have been competing at all, which explains why she competed only twice a year from 2002-05.

Either way, I am a bit conflicted. While I do believe that an athlete earns their spot, they shouldn't be frivolous with it. As much as skating is a very individual sport, it is also very much a national team when it comes to trying to earn/keep spots at worlds. There is some level of responsibility to the alternate and the team as a whole if you are injured. My concern is that Rachael (or Tom) insisted she skate with a stress fracture. This isn't a scrape we're talking about.

Cheylana
05-03-2011, 10:03 PM
One argument could be that 4CC has an international judging panel and would be a better indicator as to which skater would fare better at Worlds.


And Mirai has always fared better with international panels. Her season high scores the last two years were from international panels at 4CCs this year and the Olympics last year. Rachael, on the other hand, has her season's best consistently at Nats with sometimes much lower results internationally.
But ultimately, Mirai finished one spot ahead of Rachael at 4CCs. So it's not like the international results produced a wildly different result from Nationals. Plus Rachael had international success that Mirai hasn't had yet - making the GPF. (Granted she bombed there due in part to injury, but she did make it there.) I just think the analysis can get messy.

But if USFS were to go this route, then they should make the rule very objective, e.g., if Skater 2 and 3's Nationals scores are separated by less than [3] points, then those two skaters will have a skateoff at 4CCs to determine the last spot. If Skater 3 beats Skater 2 by more than [7] points, then Skater 3 gets the spot, otherwise Skater 2 gets it. Or something like that. No arbitrary, "oh gee, we don't like the results this year, so let's do a skateoff this time!" That, in my opinion, is just asking for trouble.