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Daba
04-20-2011, 02:17 PM
This is my first post here. Hello!
And I fell in love with fs when I watched Yagudin's Gladiator at Worlds. Yes, he had mistakes, but it was still very impressive.

Zokko!
04-20-2011, 02:27 PM
... at Euros in Bratislava the audience went mad for him after he finished, that program had everything. Makes me shiver just thinking about it! Me, too. Oh, I remember that so well. He didn't just interpret-, he really w a s The Gladiator and the audience absolutely went nuts during the last step sequence ... :swoon:

I think "Gladiator" is my favourite LP, followed by "Lawrence of Arabia". His performance at Worlds 1999 was my initial moment to become a fan. While MITM is not my favourite LP of him either, I still believe it was one of the best male Olympic performances ever ...

His Sp's were all little story-telling masterpieces, hard to tell which one I prefer. I guess his "Revolution Etude" at Worlds 2001 will always have a special place in my heart. The story behind it, the drama, audience ecstatic again ... :encore:

Macassar88
04-20-2011, 02:35 PM
See, the problem I have with this is (and this is regardless of who is skating) a fall is a MAJOR mistake. I don't think the penalties for falling are harsh enough. I will always believe that Plushy should have been at least fifth after the SP in SLC (although it must be said that the recovery was flawless - he still fell, and on the hardest combination jump, too). Likewise I will always believe that it should have been completely impossible for Patrick Chan to win Skate Canada with four falls. I just don't think that falls are penalised hard enough.
This
Personally, I wouldn't mind if falling meant you got zero points for the skill and a one points falling deduction. That way, a hand touch down or an incorrect entry edge could get -3 GOE etc

Macassar88
04-20-2011, 02:39 PM
For Yagudin, I'd having to rank his Tarasova programs (which were all miles better than his Mishin programs) like this:

SP:

Circus
Winter
Racing
Nutrocker (although I am still in love with his death drop from worlds)
A black hole
Revolutionary Etude


FS:

MITIM (His SLC performance was actually the first time I'd ever seen him skate, and I got into figure skating fairly recently (Some time in 2009), so it will always be my favorite)
Gladiator
Broken Arrow
Tosca
Lawrence of Arabia (I never really liked this one)

gkelly
04-20-2011, 03:19 PM
This
Personally, I wouldn't mind if falling meant you got zero points for the skill and a one points falling deduction. That way, a hand touch down or an incorrect entry edge could get -3 GOE etc

If a hand touchdown or incorrect entry edge by themselves get -3, what happens to a jump that has both an incorrect entry AND a hand touchdown?

What about falls that come at the end of a complex step sequence or spin -- no credit for all the other skills demonstrated in that element before the fall?

Similarly, what about falling at the end of a quad-triple-double combination? No credit for the quad and the triple that were successfully landed?

On the other hand, already some elements get so little value after a -3 GOE reduction (e.g., a downgraded double axel) that the net result after the fall deduction is already negative points for the element. So at novice and lower levels, the current penalties discourage risk taking.

The real debate is over whether risk taking (triple axels, quads, etc.) should be encouraged or discouraged at the elite levels. They keep tinkering with the penalties. Should a fall on a (rotated, or almost rotated) quad attempt, for example, result in negative net points? Exactly zero? A small positive amount? As much as or more than a mediocre triple? Every time they change the rules, some groups are always dissatisfied with the results.

Here's an interesting discussion (http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=75802) that might be worth reviving, but I think the question needs to be looked at in broader terms of how it affects the whole sport, not in reaction to one specific skater or competition.

Sparks
04-21-2011, 12:45 AM
(Racing was actually his 2002-2003 SP - he performed it at Skate Canada before withdrawing before the LP ;)) But I agree. I do prefer his eligible skates. We should find a way to give him bionic hips and send him back to eligible competition... Plushy would love it! :cool:
No. It was at Skate America where Yagudin debuted Racing and then had to withdraw before the LP.
I was there and was :wuzrobbed:wuzrobbed:wuzrobbed

misskarne
04-21-2011, 03:47 AM
For Yagudin, I'd having to rank his Tarasova programs (which were all miles better than his Mishin programs) like this:

SP:

Circus
Winter
Racing
Nutrocker (although I am still in love with his death drop from worlds)
A black hole
Revolutionary Etude


FS:

MITIM (His SLC performance was actually the first time I'd ever seen him skate, and I got into figure skating fairly recently (Some time in 2009), so it will always be my favorite)
Gladiator
Broken Arrow
Tosca
Lawrence of Arabia (I never really liked this one)


Circus and A Black Hole...what were these ones? Or are these another bunch of ones that get called half a dozen different names? ;)




The real debate is over whether risk taking (triple axels, quads, etc.) should be encouraged or discouraged at the elite levels. They keep tinkering with the penalties. Should a fall on a (rotated, or almost rotated) quad attempt, for example, result in negative net points? Exactly zero? A small positive amount? As much as or more than a mediocre triple? Every time they change the rules, some groups are always dissatisfied with the results.


Encourage them to take the risk - but they have to be able to land it. I'm sick to death of these skaters who can land their 4Ts or 3As properly getting medals even when they fall. Yeah yeah whatever, call me a Chan hater but the number of medals he has from this season is CRIMINAL. What are we saying with the current rules - you don't have to land it, you can Zamboni the ice with your butt, and we'll still let you win? It's a joke, an absolute joke, and insulting to the skaters that CAN land/perform these skills and yet are ranked behind the human Zambonis. Like Oda at SC.



No. It was at Skate America where Yagudin debuted Racing and then had to withdraw before the LP.
I was there and was :wuzrobbed:wuzrobbed:wuzrobbed

Whoops, sorry. Same continent, wrong country.

Marco
04-21-2011, 05:08 AM
Encourage them to take the risk - but they have to be able to land it. I'm sick to death of these skaters who can land their 4Ts or 3As properly getting medals even when they fall. Yeah yeah whatever, call me a Chan hater but the number of medals he has from this season is CRIMINAL. What are we saying with the current rules - you don't have to land it, you can Zamboni the ice with your butt, and we'll still let you win? It's a joke, an absolute joke, and insulting to the skaters that CAN land/perform these skills and yet are ranked behind the human Zambonis. Like Oda at SC.

So do you want a quad to be worth 15 points when landed and 0 when not landed? What about a 2 footed one? One with a step out? If you want to encourage them to take the risk, you are going to have to reward credible attempts. And no one will go for a quad if a flawed one is going to be worth much less than say, a 3lutz.

Instead of whining on empty, why don't you propose how the rules / values should be changed? :)

misskarne
04-21-2011, 12:06 PM
So do you want a quad to be worth 15 points when landed and 0 when not landed? What about a 2 footed one? One with a step out? If you want to encourage them to take the risk, you are going to have to reward credible attempts. And no one will go for a quad if a flawed one is going to be worth much less than say, a 3lutz.


I think each jump should have a base value, like they do now. So, a quad toe = 15 points (or whatever they decide it should be).

I think you should lose, say, a half of the score for a two-foot/hand down (suddenly only worth 7.5 points), two-thirds for a step out (5 points), and a flat 0 for a fall.

With combinations, it gets harder, but I think you should only lose the value of the jump you fluff (so if you do 3A-3T but step out of the 3T, you lose the appropriate value of the 3T).

A fall on a step sequence should mean an automatic drop in the level awarded that sequence - for example, if your steps would have been a level 4, but you fall, then it should be a level 3.

Holley Calmes
04-21-2011, 12:50 PM
Yeah yeah whatever, call me a Chan hater but the number of medals he has from this season is CRIMINAL.

I would never call you a Chan hater! :) I adore Chan's skating. But I totally agree about his results. However, if we want to put the "hate" out on anybody, let it be the system and the judges. Patrick went out and skated his best. It's the judges that gave him the points.

Marco
04-21-2011, 04:43 PM
I think each jump should have a base value, like they do now. So, a quad toe = 15 points (or whatever they decide it should be).

I think you should lose, say, a half of the score for a two-foot/hand down (suddenly only worth 7.5 points), two-thirds for a step out (5 points), and a flat 0 for a fall.

And if a 4toe is to be 15 points, how many points will you give a clean 3lutz?

briancoogaert
04-22-2011, 04:50 PM
^ Lawrence of Arabia is my favorite long program of Alexei's too. Overall I have enjoyed his Olympic eligible programs more than his professional ones 9an exception being "Racing" - I love that one).
Oh yes, Lawrence of Arabia was splendid. And Racing was very special, and you can add it in his competitive programs list, because it was his 2002-2003 SP ;)

nanigirl
04-22-2011, 08:14 PM
Circus and A Black Hole...what were these ones? Or are these another bunch of ones that get called half a dozen different names? ;)

Circus was the sp where his costume had a mime mask on it and red and yellow shredded fabric. In his choreography, he was playing with a ball. I can't think of which one is A Black Hole....

Macassar88
04-23-2011, 02:44 AM
Circus and A Black Hole...what were these ones? Or are these another bunch of ones that get called half a dozen different names? ;)
Circus is the 1999 worlds SP. I don't know what a black hole is

misskarne
04-23-2011, 07:48 AM
And if a 4toe is to be 15 points, how many points will you give a clean 3lutz?

I would denote clean 3A as 13 points, so clean 3Lz would be 11. But as I said, the ISU would probably give them something different.


Circus was the sp where his costume had a mime mask on it and red and yellow shredded fabric. In his choreography, he was playing with a ball. I can't think of which one is A Black Hole....

I found Circus the other day on Youtube...I think I'm traumatized :yikes: