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longingfornia
04-15-2011, 08:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZK-BNn4HYg&feature=related
Debi Thomas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reXbomkA_kQ&feature=related
Katarina Witt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMXjO0mDiI0&feature=related
Tiffany Chin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSVO1uJwaqM&feature=related
Kira Ivanova
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRkq1kh8fTA
Poor Q Anyone have a upgrade
Elizabeth Manley
No online source anyone have
Claudia Leistner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rY8hgjtr5E
Anna Kondrashova
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QNulLwpg-c
Caryn Kadavy
no source anyone have?
Tracey Wainman
Anyone have?
Natalia Lebedeva
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4oZ-Judbac
Midori Ito

With no figures Liz Manley could have been 3rd
Thoughts on this comp
I thought Kat was a lot more polished then Debi at this point
Cheers

Vagabond
04-15-2011, 09:10 PM
With no figures Liz Manley could have been 3rd


Fourth, not third:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_World_Figure_Skating_Championships#Ladies


Rank Name Nation CP SP FS SP+FS Points Total
1 Debi Thomas United States 2 1 2 1 3.6
2 Katarina Witt East Germany 3 4 1 2 4.4
3 Tiffany Chin United States 4 2 4 3 7.2
4 Kira Ivanova Soviet Union 1 6 8 8 11.0
5 Elizabeth Manley Canada 11 7 3 4 12.4

olympic
04-15-2011, 09:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZK-BNn4HYg&feature=related
Debi Thomas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reXbomkA_kQ&feature=related
Katarina Witt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMXjO0mDiI0&feature=related
Tiffany Chin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSVO1uJwaqM&feature=related
Kira Ivanova
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRkq1kh8fTA
Poor Q Anyone have a upgrade
Elizabeth Manley
No online source anyone have
Claudia Leistner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rY8hgjtr5E
Anna Kondrashova
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QNulLwpg-c
Caryn Kadavy
no source anyone have?
Tracey Wainman
Anyone have?
Natalia Lebedeva
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4oZ-Judbac
Midori Ito

With no figures Liz Manley could have been 3rd
Thoughts on this comp
I thought Kat was a lot more polished then Debi at this point
Cheers

Katarina was definitely more polished than Debi at this point. Debi wouldn't compete with Witt on the 2d mark until the '87 - '88 season. I like Debi, but she won based on Kat's uncharacteristic flub on the jump combo in the SP. I do think Kat had been battling injury that season and I also remember she was not at her 'fighting weight', as per reports in SI. But Thomas, was really able to deliver although she doubled a troublesome 3loop [she had squeaked it out at Nats].

It wasn't shown on ABC [or whatever station broadcasted '86 Worlds], but I recall seeing Liz Manley's LP on Youtube and thinking that it may have been her best performance ever.

Also, Caryn Kadavy in her first outing at Worlds had a mistake in the SP and crumbled somewhat in the LP, after her great performances at '86 Nats, ultimately finishing in 8th. She was capable even in her debut of doing better.

Ivanova was still considered a factor, if only based on awesome '85 Worlds performances, but IIRC, this was the start of the final slide downward

This unfortunately would be Tiffany Chin's final big intl. competition, although she was kind of lucky to medal because she only had a 3toe in a time frame when top ladies were starting to go for a 3d type of triple or at least maximizing 3toe and 3sal jumping passes, but Ivanova was sinking, Manley was buried, and Kadavy couldn't string together the performances she gave at nats.

I don't recall Kondrashova, except she must've had a great SP [wasn't televised] because she was 2d to Thomas.

Ito was here IIRC, and I think she finished middle of the pack? I don't recall her being a factor. Must've made mistakes? Or buried herself in the figures?

I also never saw Wainman, but I think she did really well in Figures, 5th or something?

judgejudy27
04-15-2011, 09:43 PM
I am surprised Witt ended up 4th in the short with a blown combo. How did Ito, Ivanova, Manley, and Leistner skate in the short?

This was definitely the end of Ivanova's run as a serious contender at the World level. Skating such a bad LP and not medaling her rep took a giant hit, and her skating was regressing and would continue to until her retirement anyway. She kept winning figures but it was nothing more than a novelty in future years.

I am pretty sure if Manley had done the same LP in the final flight and been in contention going into the long she would have won the LP with the same performance.

John Tesh is a terrible commentator. Even worse than he was as a gymnastics commentator.

Kadavy's LP at Nationals that year was not that great also. She didnt land most of her planned triples cleanly there. She blew a big shot to beat Thomas, one of the only times the judges probably even considered letting her do that.

kwanette
04-15-2011, 09:50 PM
I always thought that Kat's "artistry" was way over-rated. While she was a vision on the ice. she never held her moves, pointed her toes..and her butt sticking out in her spread eagle drove me nuts. I hated how she used her arms and hands.(Kind of flung them).That said, she was a terrific competitor.

judgejudy27
04-15-2011, 10:01 PM
I always thought that Kat's "artistry" was way over-rated. While she was a vision on the ice. she never held her moves, pointed her toes..and her butt sticking out in her spread eagle drove me nuts. I hated how she used her arms and hands.(Kind of flung them).That said, she was a terrific competitor.

I agree totally. However there werent many great artistic skaters at the time so just through her character and command on ice she became one of the best. The only potentially great artistic skaters of that period were probably Kadavy, Kondrashova, and depending on your point of view maybe Trenary, and all were weak competitors to varying degrees.

I actually think Anna Kondrashova is the most artistic Russian skater ever. Definitely moreso than Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, or Ivanova. Unfortunately she was never that strong a technical skater, never skated with enough power, sureness, or confidence, and was too inconsistent.

orbitz
04-15-2011, 10:01 PM
IKadavy's LP at Nationals that year was not that great also. She didnt land most of her planned triples cleanly there. She blew a big shot to beat Thomas, one of the only times the judges probably even considered letting her do that.

Yep. Kadavy never gave a "great" performance at Nationals. If she did she would have been National Champion. She's the Sasha of her time: capable of winning a National Chamionship over her main rivals at the time but could never put it together.

briancoogaert
04-15-2011, 10:03 PM
I always thought that Kat's "artistry" was way over-rated. While she was a vision on the ice. she never held her moves, pointed her toes..and her butt sticking out in her spread eagle drove me nuts. I hated how she used her arms and hands.(Kind of flung them).That said, she was a terrific competitor.
My thought exactly. But she had something special on the ice. I don't know how to describe it : something very natural and attractive !

olympic
04-15-2011, 10:03 PM
^ I guess I forgot about Kadavy's LP at Nats, but she did win the SP IIRC

skatesindreams
04-15-2011, 10:05 PM
I always thought that Kat's "artistry" was way over-rated. While she was a vision on the ice. she never held her moves, pointed her toes..and her butt sticking out in her spread eagle drove me nuts. I hated how she used her arms and hands.(Kind of flung them).That said, she was a terrific competitor.

Joining the chorus!

Adding:

Midori Ito - 1986 World Championships Long Program (UK)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4oZ-Judbac

Midori Ito 1986 Worlds SP & LP (JPTV)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FfYj6WQzDM

Elizabeth Manley LP 1986 World Championships
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRkq1kh8fTA

Caryn Kadavy (USA) - 1986 World Championships, Ladies' Long Program
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QNulLwpg-c&playnext=1&list=PL544D46D5ACF7D39E

Vagabond
04-15-2011, 10:34 PM
I am pretty sure if Manley had done the same LP in the final flight and been in contention going into the long she would have won the LP with the same performance.

I think it's fair to say that Manley was undermarked, but this kind of speculation goes nowhere. For Manley to be in the final flight, either she would have had to have been better at figures (probably at the expense of her free skating) or there would have had to be no compulsories, in which case Thomas, Witt, and Chin would likely have been able to develop and deliver even better SP's and FS's than they did.

kwanette
04-16-2011, 12:13 AM
My thought exactly. But she had something special on the ice. I don't know how to describe it : something very natural and attractive !

Some skaters had/have command on the ice. Kat had "demand", does that make sense?

She definitely had a "presence"..

Yazmeen
04-16-2011, 02:57 AM
Makes perfect sense. No-one has ever competed like Katarina, before or after. She really "demanded" attention.

MR-FAN
04-16-2011, 03:01 AM
Liz Manley was really brilliant, what a performance!

floskate
04-16-2011, 07:29 AM
Liz skated just as well if not better at the 1986 St Ivel. :eek: Lutz, toe, loop and sal all clean as you like woven together in an utterly brilliant program. If only she had skated that performance at the 1987 Worlds :(

1986 was only Ito's second worlds as she missed '85 with a broken ankle. She skated great but was growing and her triple lutz wasn't very consistent in '86 or '87. It was only after she lost weight before the '87-88 season that she really got it back.

As discussed in the other thread about Witt, she wasn't a great artist on the ice, never was but she absolutely had the 'it' factor, was just about the best publicity a sport could wish for and the judges marked her accordingly.