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UGG
04-20-2011, 04:10 AM
Mediocre..but why dead beat? I don't get it.

I was being dramatic. I actually like Evan LOL.

Fandango
04-20-2011, 06:47 AM
OK, I was wrong, wrong, wrong! :drama: Off with my head! :lynch: :rollin:

So, only *four* former Olympic Champs (1988 Boitano, 1998 Kulik, 2002 Yagudin, 2006 Plushenko) plus *only* one Olympic podium (2002 Plushenko, Goebel) are above Lysacek 2010. Still a lot, don't you think? And I'm convinced, they would have beaten him under any system, no matter what. Because mediocrity remains mediocrity, no matter what.

Having said that, I never doubted Lysacek worked hard. He had to. But that's how his performances look like: Hard work, nothing else! Not many real natural moves, almost everything seems uneasy, worked out, learnt. And not exactly pleasant to watch.

skateboy
04-20-2011, 07:30 AM
2002 is still my favorite mens competition and I agree with the result.

As for Lysacek, I don't think many people consider him a "great" skater. In fact, there was a lot of Evan hate on these boards, long before he won worlds and the Olympics. He wasn't always such a nice and gracious person. I believe he developed that later, but better late than never.

The funny thing is, I don't think Evan was even close to a clear frontrunner for Oly gold or even the podium. The 2010 mens event COULD have been the greatest in history: there were at least eight men that could have made the podium. Remember how, in the fall before Olys, lots of people thought it was a race between Plushy and Oda? (Oda had a great Grand Prix season.) Bottom line: if Lambiel, Dai, Oda, Chan, Joubert and Plush himself had all skated their best, Evan would have had a tough time making the podium. But Evan worked incredibly hard and was mentally strong enough to win the toughest competition in the world, when others crumbled. Gotta admire him for that.

Vagabond
04-20-2011, 08:21 AM
OK, I was wrong, wrong, wrong! :drama: Off with my head! :lynch: :rollin:

So, only *four* former Olympic Champs (1988 Boitano, 1998 Kulik, 2002 Yagudin, 2006 Plushenko) plus *only* one Olympic podium (2002 Plushenko, Goebel) are above Lysacek 2010. Still a lot, don't you think? And I'm convinced, they would have beaten him under any system, no matter what. Because mediocrity remains mediocrity, no matter what.

That's your opinion, and you still haven't done as I asked and explained your rationale for your rankings.

Personally, I'd have it this way:

Boitano 1988 vs. Lysacek 2010: Jumps and presentation for Boitano, but spins and footwork for Lysacek. SP and LP combined: overall, probably Boitano if we're using 6.0, but not by much. If we're using CoP, it might be Lysacek.

Kulik 1998 vs. Lysacek 2010: Lysacek's SP was clearly better. Kulik had a 3A+3T combo and a 3Z, but his third jump was only a 2A, whereas Lysacek's jumps were 3A, 3Z+3T, and 3F. Lysacek's spins and footwork were much harder, and I'd give him the nod on the second mark too. In the LP, Kulik had a 4T, 3A+3T, and 3A, whereas Lysacek had a (shaky) 3A+2T and a 3A, but Kulik failed to execute his only other planned combination, a 3S+3T, which he turned into 3S, steps, 3T, while Lysacek also did a 3Z+3T and a 3F+2T+2R. Lysacek's LP spins, footwork, and jump entrances were much more difficult than Kulik's. The second mark, if judged under 6.0, could go either way, but under CoP would have to go to Lysacek. SP and LP combined: Lysacek. A 4T and better 3A technique aren't everything.

Podium 2002 vs. Lysacek 2010: Salt Lake City was the apotheosis of 6.0 skating. I'd give this matchup to Yagudin, Plushenko, and Goebel, but I'm not sure how well they would hold up if they were judged under the exacting standards of CoP as it existed in 2010.

Plushenko 2006 vs. Lysacek 2010: Plushenko's score was 258.33; Lysacek's was 257.67. Plushenko's LP was front-loaded and short on transitions. His marks for those Components (and Interpretation) should have been lower than Savoie's. (If you hunt around in the Archves, you will find a detailed analysis of the transitions in Plushenko, Buttle, Lambiel, and Savoie's LP's. It's enough to make you wonder how Plushenko even scored in the 5's on that Component.) With those corrections, Plushenko's total score should have been less than 257.67. I'd give this one to Lysacek.

So there you go: Two predecessors and one entire podium if we're going by 6.0. Probably no one if we're going by CoP.

But I'd like to see your explanation. :watch:

theshrew
04-20-2011, 08:33 AM
So there you go: Two predecessors and one entire podium if we're going by 6.0. Probably no one if we're going by CoP.



:lol: So the conclusion is that, based on various interpretations of COP requirements and having in view that being a great jumper is really uncool, Lysacek is one of the greatest skaters ever????

Maybe you can't see the forest because of the trees.

senorita
04-20-2011, 09:31 AM
I still don't get the unpleasant attitudes towards Evan. No, he's not my favorite skater, and no, he's not the best male skater who ever lived, but he's still damned good. I know there is a faction of Plushy-lovers who hate him for obvious reasons, and I can understand that even if I don't agree. I just tend to ignore them-they're usually only interested in one organ of his body these days anyway. :lol: But otherwise? I just don't get it. Evan's not my type of male skater, but he's a tall, handsome, gifted athlete, gracious and with lovely demeanor and manners, which of course don't count as much on the ice but sure count outside of it. He's a champion with heart. I think he deserves respect. Maybe not adoration but at least respect. JMHO.


really? So in other words, not to appreciate Evans skating or watch his flaws ON THIS BOARD, means you have to be a Plush stan with no idea of figure skating who is interested in his organ?:rolleyes:
Worlds 2009 Plushy was not on the horizon btw and I remember the board really well then.

SmallFairy
04-20-2011, 09:43 AM
That's your opinion, and you still haven't done as I asked and explained your rationale for your rankings.

Personally, I'd have it this way:

Boitano 1988 vs. Lysacek 2010: Jumps and presentation for Boitano, but spins and footwork for Lysacek. SP and LP combined: overall, probably Boitano if we're using 6.0, but not by much. If we're using CoP, it might be Lysacek.

Kulik 1998 vs. Lysacek 2010: Lysacek's SP was clearly better. Kulik had a 3A+3T combo and a 3Z, but his third jump was only a 2A, whereas Lysacek's jumps were 3A, 3Z+3T, and 3F. Lysacek's spins and footwork were much harder, and I'd give him the nod on the second mark too. In the LP, Kulik had a 4T, 3A+3T, and 3A, whereas Lysacek had a (shaky) 3A+2T and a 3A, but Kulik failed to execute his only other planned combination, a 3S+3T, which he turned into 3S, steps, 3T, while Lysacek also did a 3Z+3T and a 3F+2T+2R. Lysacek's LP spins, footwork, and jump entrances were much more difficult than Kulik's. The second mark, if judged under 6.0 could go either way, but under CoP would have to go to Lysacek. SP and LP combined: Lysacek. A 4T and better 3A technique aren't everything.

Podium 2002 vs. Lysacek 2010: Salt Lake City was the apotheosis of 6.0 skating. I'd give this matchup to Yagudin, Plushenko, and Goebel, but I'm not sure how well they would hold up if they were judged under the exacting standards of CoP as it existed in 2010.

Plushenko 2006 vs. Lysacek 2010: Plushenko's score was 258.33; Lysacek's was 257.67. Plushenko's LP was front-loaded and short on transitions. His marks for those Components (and Interpretation) should have been lower than Savoie's. (If you hunt around in the archves, you will find a detailed analysis of the transitions in Plushenko, Buttle, Lambiel, and Savoie's LP's. It's enough to make you wonder how Plushenko even scored in the 5's on that Component.) With those corrections, Plushenko's total shore should have been less than 257.67. I'd give this one to Lysacek.

So there you go: Two predecessors and one entire podium if we're going by 6.0. Probably no one if we're going by CoP.

But I'd like to see your explanation. :watch:

I don't even want to detail comment on this, because it's all too silly. of course, you are titled to your opinion, and I happen to totally disagree.
Comparing poor Evan to Kulik, Boitano or Plushenko. I don't hate Evan, and he does he's best of what he's given, but no....

and in Vancouver, to me Dai skated the best overall long program, fall or not!! Plush or Evan, I don't care, blah! Dai's program was a real program, he did almost all the jumps well, his steps were great and he skated it with passion.

(and as it had been said a zillion times before, it's almost impossible to set the different times up against each other - yes, Kulik did only a 2a in his sp, because that's what everybody did back then:P)

ciocio
04-20-2011, 09:45 AM
I still don't get the unpleasant attitudes towards Evan. No, he's not my favorite skater, and no, he's not the best male skater who ever lived, but he's still damned good. I know there is a faction of Plushy-lovers who hate him for obvious reasons, and I can understand that even if I don't agree. I just tend to ignore them-they're usually only interested in one organ of his body these days anyway. :lol: But otherwise? I just don't get it. Evan's not my type of male skater, but he's a tall, handsome, gifted athlete, gracious and with lovely demeanor and manners, which of course don't count as much on the ice but sure count outside of it. He's a champion with heart. I think he deserves respect. Maybe not adoration but at least respect. JMHO.

:lol::lol::lol: This is the most funny comment in this thread, it made my day. Unfortunately I can´t give you REP but I hope someone here did it. It deserves a lot of +++++++++. :lol:
Now I have to disagree with you that Plushy-lovers hate Evan. Seniorita is right, I´ve seen a lot of nasty comments towards Evan before Plushy´s comeback and I´m sure the posters weren´t fortune tellers. :D And let´s stop using the word "hate", there isn´t any "obvious reasons" to hate a skater.:(

kwanette
04-20-2011, 09:57 AM
I was being dramatic. I actually like Evan LOL.

Thanks.

paskatefan
04-20-2011, 11:58 AM
IMO, Evan wasn't just lucky. He trained damned hard...like his style or not. That medal was earned. He never claimed he was the only person who worked hard. His story is a lot like a fable: perserverance of the Ant wins over the Grasshopper....and I tend to be more like the Grasshopper. :slinkaway
Evan is not my absolute fave, but his win was totally deserved.


Thank you! Count me in as another one who doesn't get all the hate/negativity/constant trashing
towards certain skaters at this board.

misskarne
04-20-2011, 12:47 PM
My favorite Kulik program was his 1996 Addams Family program. Wonderful.

Funny story - my dad and I are always butting heads about the validity of FS as a sport. One day I was watching this one on my computer - I had the volume up, the music starts and suddenly Dad's head is through my door - "That's the Addams Family! Wait...someone's skating to that?" and he just kinda stared all bewildered at the screen for a moment. I could almost see the thoughts warring on his face! :rofl::rofl:

For the record, I adore Faust. And Aladdin.


Re: SLC - The Men's programs were the best part. No whining and a pure win...and Yagudin was King!

+1 This comment is true!


Kulik 1998 vs. Lysacek 2010: Lysacek's SP was clearly better. Kulik had a 3A+3T combo and a 3Z, but his third jump was only a 2A, whereas Lysacek's jumps were 3A, 3Z+3T, and 3F.

That's not fair. The 2A was a REQUIRED ELEMENT in the SP back then, even for men. Ilia HAD to do the 2A or he'd have been walloped. You can bet your bottom dollar that if he was allowed to do another triple he would have.

Also, the second mark? At least Ilia has expression and lines!


Now I have to disagree with you that Plushy-lovers hate Evan. Seniorita is right, I´ve seen a lot of nasty comments towards Evan before Plushy´s comeback and I´m sure the posters weren´t fortune tellers. :D

I also :rofl: when people think that Plushy hates Lysacek. He doesn't hate him, he just views him as an inferior skater (and he's probably right). He hated Yagudin (now they're friends). If you look at body language and tonal expression in interviews, he's over Vancouver, but Salt Lake City still hurts a bit.

I don't "hate" Lysacek. I don't think he's a great skater. He just leaves me indifferent. The guy's got all the charisma of a plain garden pebble. There's a difference between that and "hate".

Fandango
04-20-2011, 03:03 PM
That's your opinion, and you still haven't done as I asked and explained your rationale for your rankings.

Personally, I'd have it this way:

Boitano 1988 vs. Lysacek 2010: Jumps and presentation for Boitano, but spins and footwork for Lysacek. SP and LP combined: overall, probably Boitano if we're using 6.0, but not by much. If we're using CoP, it might be Lysacek.

Kulik 1998 vs. Lysacek 2010: Lysacek's SP was clearly better. Kulik had a 3A+3T combo and a 3Z, but his third jump was only a 2A, whereas Lysacek's jumps were 3A, 3Z+3T, and 3F. Lysacek's spins and footwork were much harder, and I'd give him the nod on the second mark too. In the LP, Kulik had a 4T, 3A+3T, and 3A, whereas Lysacek had a (shaky) 3A+2T and a 3A, but Kulik failed to execute his only other planned combination, a 3S+3T, which he turned into 3S, steps, 3T, while Lysacek also did a 3Z+3T and a 3F+2T+2R. Lysacek's LP spins, footwork, and jump entrances were much more difficult than Kulik's. The second mark, if judged under 6.0 could go either way, but under CoP would have to go to Lysacek. SP and LP combined: Lysacek. A 4T and better 3A technique aren't everything.

Podium 2002 vs. Lysacek 2010: Salt Lake City was the apotheosis of 6.0 skating. I'd give this matchup to Yagudin, Plushenko, and Goebel, but I'm not sure how well they would hold up if they were judged under the exacting standards of CoP as it existed in 2010.

Plushenko 2006 vs. Lysacek 2010: Plushenko's score was 258.33; Lysacek's was 257.67. Plushenko's LP was front-loaded and short on transitions. His marks for those Components (and Interpretation) should have been lower than Savoie's. (If you hunt around in the archves, you will find a detailed analysis of the transitions in Plushenko, Buttle, Lambiel, and Savoie's LP's. It's enough to make you wonder how Plushenko even scored in the 5's on that Component.) With those corrections, Plushenko's total shore should have been less than 257.67. I'd give this one to Lysacek.

So there you go: Two predecessors and one entire podium if we're going by 6.0. Probably no one if we're going by CoP.

But I'd like to see your explanation. :watch:Thanks for your efforts, but I have to disappoint you. I don't want get into it. I won't deny Lysacek may have some "nice" elements, since he has always been an eager point collector. But that's splitting hairs again, not part of the story. Not the way I watch skating.

I'm not sitting in front of my TV with slide rule and notebook, counting elements. I prefer to watch performances as a whole. I can only recommend to watch these programs again, without all that stuff in your head, enjoy Boitano, Kulik, Yagudin etc. and the way these guys transfer themselves on the ice, and then take a look on Lysacek again. If you don't see, don't "feel" the difference, I can't help you.

Well, we all know L. is diligent. But there are certain things in skating that cannot be learnt or worked-out. Either you have "it", or not. :cold:

blue_idealist
04-20-2011, 03:31 PM
That's your opinion, and you still haven't done as I asked and explained your rationale for your rankings.

Personally, I'd have it this way:

Boitano 1988 vs. Lysacek 2010: Jumps and presentation for Boitano, but spins and footwork for Lysacek. SP and LP combined: overall, probably Boitano if we're using 6.0, but not by much. If we're using CoP, it might be Lysacek.

Kulik 1998 vs. Lysacek 2010: Lysacek's SP was clearly better. Kulik had a 3A+3T combo and a 3Z, but his third jump was only a 2A, whereas Lysacek's jumps were 3A, 3Z+3T, and 3F. Lysacek's spins and footwork were much harder, and I'd give him the nod on the second mark too. In the LP, Kulik had a 4T, 3A+3T, and 3A, whereas Lysacek had a (shaky) 3A+2T and a 3A, but Kulik failed to execute his only other planned combination, a 3S+3T, which he turned into 3S, steps, 3T, while Lysacek also did a 3Z+3T and a 3F+2T+2R. Lysacek's LP spins, footwork, and jump entrances were much more difficult than Kulik's. The second mark, if judged under 6.0 could go either way, but under CoP would have to go to Lysacek. SP and LP combined: Lysacek. A 4T and better 3A technique aren't everything.

Podium 2002 vs. Lysacek 2010: Salt Lake City was the apotheosis of 6.0 skating. I'd give this matchup to Yagudin, Plushenko, and Goebel, but I'm not sure how well they would hold up if they were judged under the exacting standards of CoP as it existed in 2010.



Exactly.

Vagabond
04-20-2011, 04:04 PM
That's not fair. The 2A was a REQUIRED ELEMENT in the SP back then, even for men. Ilia HAD to do the 2A or he'd have been walloped. You can bet your bottom dollar that if he was allowed to do another triple he would have.

Also, the second mark? At least Ilia has expression and lines!

I know it's not fair, misskarne, but Fandango's original proposition of comparing Lysacek to skaters as far back as Boitano isn't fair. Boitano had to do figures. Lysacek had to do high-level CoP-style spins and footwork, CoP jump entrances, and CoP transitions (at least in order to be competitive). Kulik and Yagudin had to do quadruple jumps.

Because Lysacek had to do these particular things, he was forced to develop his skating in a certain way. If CoP had not come into being right when Lysacek was breaking into the top level of Seniors, he would probably have spent more time developing his quadruple jump at the expense of his spins, footwork, and transitions, and the comparative weakness of his overall expression, unless dealt with, would be more glaring.

I would agree with you that Kulik's expression and lines are superior to Lysacek's, but Kulik's transitions and overall execution of his program were inferior. All of these factors were considered under 6.0, though the weight given to each was effectively left to the particular judge when he or she ranked the overall performances.


:lol: So the conclusion is that, based on various interpretations of COP requirements and having in view that being a great jumper is really uncool, Lysacek is one of the greatest skaters ever????

Maybe you can't see the forest because of the trees.

I would say that the forest is the ever-changing nature of figure skating. The trees are each individual skater's programs, each of which was tailored to the demands of the day.

I would call John Curry a much better skater than Alexei Urmanov, but I would not suggest that Curry would win if their winning Olympic SP's and LP's were compared side-by-side.

If you want to say the forest is one's overall impression of the programs, you have to remember that overall impression doesn't count for much under CoP. Still, I'd take Lysacek 2010 over Plushenko 2006 for the reasons I mentioned above.


Thanks for your efforts, but I have to disappoint you. I don't want get into it.

How predictable. You can't even explain why Plushenko was better in 2006 than Lysacek was in 2010, even though both were scored under CoP.

DORISPULASKI
04-20-2011, 04:21 PM
Well, two things are true about Lysacek:

He never had a nice looking 3A, and he certainly did try to have one. In no way was his 3A close to any of Boitano, Orser, or Kulik, or for that matter Petrenko. I'd have him behind the whole podium in 1988.

He did attempt to get a quad, and he never could land one consistently in competition. As it happens, 2010 was a year where doing a quad didn't buy you enough for the risk; that's why he didn't try one, but frankly, he also didn't have one to try.

His quadlessness and 3A insufficiency weren't about the years he competed in, but about his inabilities.