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shine
04-13-2011, 05:00 PM
Those were the times men skating was about MEN. Challenging each other. Powerful jumpers. And some great artists too.


Maybe there's more to being MEN than powerful jumps? What an insult to those men who define themselves differently and want to be more than just that. :blah:

blue_idealist
04-13-2011, 06:40 PM
It's not fair to compare Evan Lysacek's performance in 2010 with Yagudin's in 2002 and say figure skating has suffered a downfall. Yagudin is one of the best male skaters EVER. I don't see Lysacek's performance as inferior to Kulik's in 1998, Urmanov's in 1994, or Petrenko's in 1992. Re: Plushenko's 2006 performance, sure it had more quads than Evan's, but there wasn't much emotion behind it. Maybe Evan isn't the best Olympic champion EVER, but that doesn't mean that figure skating's gone downhill or he didn't deserve the gold medal.

Daria
04-13-2011, 07:52 PM
It's not fair to compare Evan Lysacek's performance in 2010 with Yagudin's in 2002 and say figure skating has suffered a downfall. Yagudin is one of the best male skaters EVER. I don't see Lysacek's performance as inferior to Kulik's in 1998, Urmanov's in 1994, or Petrenko's in 1992. Re: Plushenko's 2006 performance, sure it had more quads than Evan's, but there wasn't much emotion behind it. Maybe Evan isn't the best Olympic champion EVER, but that doesn't mean that figure skating's gone downhill or he didn't deserve the gold medal.

Well, the sport changed, that's all. It would be nice if someone her put these 2002 programs under the current scoring system. Everyone landed quads at the time and that competition had a remarkable quality of course, but nowadays skaters are more challenged to improve on the others components, I think. PS. Sorry for eventual grammar errors, my english is kinda awkward. :)

Fandango
04-13-2011, 08:01 PM
Thank you, SmallFairy, for posting all these links and bringing back the glory days of male figure skating! :respec: All those sweet memories came back to me; and I'm still having goosebumps while watching! Characters like Yagudin, Abt, Honda and even Plushenko (! ;) ) who were easily in the position to combine technical difficulties (quads) with great artistry (or at least great presentation), and all that in the SP already, in the most important, most exciting competition of their life! :encore:

But that was "then" - and what do we have now? The slide rule generation. Lysacek the reigning "Olympic Champion", Chan almost surely the next World Champion. A lot of hesitant, boring 9-to-5-skaters and ardent point-collectors. Not enough real character's any more, and only a few rays of light in sight. Oh well, I cannot even blame them. It's the system. But the fun seems over (to me). :(

Cloudy_Gumdrops
04-13-2011, 08:08 PM
PS. Sorry for eventual grammar errors, my english is kinda awkward. :)

Your English is very good. :)

I always thought Abt wuzrobbed in the SP. I adore his Armenian Dances program.

Li's 4toe is totally the best quad ever imo.

Macassar88
04-13-2011, 09:52 PM
Maybe there's more to being MEN than powerful jumps? What an insult to those men who define themselves differently and want to be more than just that. :blah:

But they were so much more than that. Have you seen any Yagudin programs after he went to Tarasova?

mia joy
04-14-2011, 11:07 AM
But they were so much more than that. Have you seen any Yagudin programs after he went to Tarasova?

That's exactly what I meant. He had that masculine style of skating, his quads were beautiful and at the same time, he was such an artist.

And besides, I didn't say they were all about jumps. Jeez, here we go again. If they want to be "more than just that", that's great. I just don't get why they become sth else instead of that. Yagudin and some others from that period showed it was possible to combine jumps with emotion and artistry.

Besides, it's not only that Lysacek didn't have any quads. If he had been an artistry and emotion master, I would have welcomed his gold over Plush's total lack of choreography. The problem is, he was neither a jumper, nor an artist. This is really not the kind of Olympic champ I wanna see after seing Yags - or even after seing Lambiel win silver in 2006.

misskarne
04-14-2011, 01:21 PM
Those were the times men skating was about MEN. Challenging each other. Powerful jumpers. And some great artists too.

Absolutely! And not only challenging each other, but challenging THEMSELVES.


It's not fair to compare Evan Lysacek's performance in 2010 with Yagudin's in 2002 and say figure skating has suffered a downfall. Yagudin is one of the best male skaters EVER. I don't see Lysacek's performance as inferior to Kulik's in 1998, Urmanov's in 1994, or Petrenko's in 1992. Re: Plushenko's 2006 performance, sure it had more quads than Evan's, but there wasn't much emotion behind it. Maybe Evan isn't the best Olympic champion EVER, but that doesn't mean that figure skating's gone downhill or he didn't deserve the gold medal.

This bugs me. Kulik, Yagudin and Plushenko all took big risks to win their golds. (Okay, in Plushenko's case it was always a little on the cut-and-dried side, but he still brought his A-game). Lysacek very obviously did not take risks. He was going to skate an absolutely safe program. He was never going to challenge himself with it. And you cannot call Plushenko's OGM-winning LP "emotionless" if you call Lysacek's "emotional", because Lysacek had all the emotion of a teaspoon.

Or, to put it another way, if you look at say, Plushenko's Skate America LP from 1997...it's about the same level of technical. With the added difficulty that Plushenko was fourteen-about-to-turn-fifteen.



Maybe there's more to being MEN than powerful jumps? What an insult to those men who define themselves differently and want to be more than just that. :blah:

But the jumps are neccessary. And if you are going to compete at the highest level, why not challenge yourself?


But that was "then" - and what do we have now? The slide rule generation. Lysacek the reigning "Olympic Champion", Chan almost surely the next World Champion. A lot of hesitant, boring 9-to-5-skaters and ardent point-collectors. Not enough real character's any more, and only a few rays of light in sight. Oh well, I cannot even blame them. It's the system. But the fun seems over (to me). :(

Yes, this. All this generation of skaters seems to really care about is "collecting the points", and all the programs are beginning to look the same. I mean, look at last season and this season. Last season, men weren't really doing quads, because they didn't "score enough". Chan even proclaimed loudly all season that you didn't need a quad. What then is the point if you're not challenging yourself? This season, the score increased, and suddenly everyone was doing quads because of the scores.


I don't skate to collect points, I don't skate to earn badges or pass tests or earn approval (although I certainly pass my tests and collect my badges). I skate for the thrill of doing something challenging, learning something new. I almost LIKE it when I can't do something, because it means I have to push myself. I think a lot of this generation of skaters is forgetting why they skate in the first place.

millipied
04-14-2011, 02:22 PM
Why this is suddenly became Lysacek defence thread? LOL:)
And as the original poster pointed out 2002 had far more than Yagudin.

antmanb
04-14-2011, 02:33 PM
I don't skate to collect points, I don't skate to earn badges or pass tests or earn approval (although I certainly pass my tests and collect my badges). I skate for the thrill of doing something challenging, learning something new. I almost LIKE it when I can't do something, because it means I have to push myself. I think a lot of this generation of skaters is forgetting why they skate in the first place.

So just because you skate for a particular reason, you somehow are attributing your desires in your own skating to not one or two but an entire generation of skaters and claiming they forget why they skated in the first place? Really?

SmallFairy
04-14-2011, 03:00 PM
Why this is suddenly became Lysacek defence thread? LOL:)
And as the original poster pointed out 2002 had far more than Yagudin.

Thanks:):) 2002 had mostly everything!! So much quality in every aspect, and I felt that so many of the men were giving me a real experience, even though they weren't fighting for the medals, or had the complete package. Murvanidzes basic were horrid, but his spins were beautiful, and his charisma and program were so totally one-of-a-kind.

Zoltan Toth skated a very romantic and tender program to tinkly piano music...and out of the blue came the quad! wow!

we also still had some of the "old-school" guys; Rylov, Dmitrenko, Eldredge, Skorniakov...you almost felt they were from another era, and I miss them now! (Vlaschenko should have been there too, that would've been fab!)

On Yagudin and Abt, I can go on gushing forever***

Now, Daisuke is carrying their legacy:D

gkelly
04-14-2011, 03:01 PM
This bugs me. Kulik, Yagudin and Plushenko all took big risks to win their golds. (Okay, in Plushenko's case it was always a little on the cut-and-dried side, but he still brought his A-game). Lysacek very obviously did not take risks. He was going to skate an absolutely safe program. He was never going to challenge himself with it.

I disagree. Quads are not the only kind of risks or challenges to oneself. Full upper body movement in step sequences (including, yes, arm thrashing) is a risk. Difficult spin positions that challenge balance are a risk. Deep edges are a risk. Difficult entries or exits from jumps and spins are a risk. Including variety steps, turns, and highlight moves between elements rather than just simple turns, crossovers, gliding on two feet, and other simple skating is a risk. Skating with attack and energy instead of staying in one's comfort zone is a risk.

Skating a program full of all of the above is much more risky than skating a simple program with the same jump content. How much some of the above makes up for including one quad vs. leaving it out (assuming one is capable of attempting one) is up for debate. But I think it's fair to say that in 2010 Plushenko left out a lot more of that stuff than he had in 2002, even accounting for the change of rules and judging system.

Loves_Shizuka
04-14-2011, 03:25 PM
I know, right? I cannot believe we keep debating if choreo and transitions are more important than quads...

Those were the times men skating was about MEN. Challenging each other. Powerful jumpers. And some great artists too.


Siiiigh. :rolleyes:

ciocio
04-14-2011, 03:46 PM
I disagree. Quads are not the only kind of risks or challenges to oneself. Full upper body movement in step sequences (including, yes, arm thrashing) is a risk. Difficult spin positions that challenge balance are a risk. Deep edges are a risk. Difficult entries or exits from jumps and spins are a risk. Including variety steps, turns, and highlight moves between elements rather than just simple turns, crossovers, gliding on two feet, and other simple skating is a risk. Skating with attack and energy instead of staying in one's comfort zone is a risk.

Probably we should make a poll to see how skaters injured themselves, training jumps, step sequences, spins, etc. It would be interesting.

VIETgrlTerifa
04-14-2011, 03:50 PM
I forgot how great Yagudin's "Winter" is.