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misskarne
04-25-2011, 01:44 PM
One of the worst LPs Plushenko has ever delivered? Don't you think that's a bit OTT? He landed a quad and seven triples, two of them 3axels, plus all his non-jump elements were either level 3 or 4. One or two iffy landings is all he did wrong. Whether you like the programme/his style or not, it was actually a very good performance technically.

Certainly, I personally don't think Plushenko's LP in Vancouver was all that bad. I was taking the common theme from the American commentators/press. But then, that female commentator alongside Scott Hamilton...phew, she was NASTY. Lysacek could have fallen eight times and she'd have still given him the gold over Plushenko. So just to clarify: the "worst LP" comes from the description given by the American commentators/press.

I actually really love the music and the concept was good...the choreo was a little offkilter but damn, the man has the charisma to pull it off anyway. There's a reason I went straight for him and not Lysacek!

I rewatched it again recently; after having let it build up in my head for so long I was really convinced it was terrible. But you're right - there actually wasn't much wrong with it.

(How he landed that second 3Lz and then ADDED the 3T I'll never know.)

Macassar88
04-26-2011, 01:10 AM
what is the inmann e-mail?

gkelly
04-26-2011, 02:02 AM
There's a long thread on the topic (http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=71391) in the archives, if you have access to it.

Basically, after 2010 Europeans Plushenko made a comment to the effect that he (and he also named Brian Joubert) focused on difficult jumps rather than transitions.

Joe Inman, who is a high-ranking American judge involved with international judge training, sent an e-mail to many international judges quoting Plushenko's comments and asking "What does that translate into a mark?"

Some observers interpreted this as an instruction to lower Plushenko's and Joubert's marks specifically.

Personally, I just see it as a reminder to judge the components independently based on what the skater puts on the ice -- if there aren't many transitions (as even the skater admits), then take that into account when assigning the mark for the transitions component, regardless of the skater's nationality, reputation, or jump content.

judgejudy27
04-26-2011, 06:19 AM
I feel the same way. I thought Takahashi was the best skater at the games, and I don't know how Plushenko or Lysacek were even close to him, especially in the short program where he was in a different league than both of them.

Lysacek was insanely overscored in the short program. 90 points for that. :lol: OK it was HIS best, but that only means so much. He deserved 86-87 area at most. And what on earth did he do in it to warrant PCS .1 to .2 higher per component than Takahashis artistic masterpiece of a performance. That Evan passed Takahashi in the short program based solely on higher PCS was shameful really. Plushenko should have led Evan by atleast 3 points after the short program, and Takahashi should have been atleast yet another 3 points up on Plushenko. The judging of the long program was also horrible. Evan was credited with an underrotated 2nd triple axel, while Takahashi was given some ridiculous edge calls and one questionable downgrade, along with the inflated PCS of both Evan and Evgeny for their cautious, solid but uninspired performances. Evans gold medal is justifed by quality over quads. If the gold should be based on quality that it clearly should have gone to Takahashi whose only major error that Evan didnt make himself was the fall on a quad try. Otherwise you might as well just make it based on quads in which case Plushenko who landed a quad-triple in both programs along with every other triple even if some were iffy should have won. Whatever Evans win was justified by was something that doesnt even exist. If Evan had skated like he did at the 2007 Nationals I would have no problem at all with his winning with Takahashis falls. But as it was...

judgejudy27
04-26-2011, 06:32 AM
And Inmans e-mail already made the whole mens event in Vancouver tainted and corrupt from the very start IMO. It was pretty much set up for Evan to win regardless how anyone else skated if he so much as stayed on his feet. It was even worse the not so secret heavy poliking behind Chan right now, since atleast Chan is probably the best skater out there at the moment. I wouldnt be surprised if Takahashi had landed his quad or Lambiel had landed his jumps cleanly and they still would have given the gold to Evan (ROTFL at the reaction if that happened).

shine
04-26-2011, 09:49 AM
I still do not understand how people can defend the Inman email...there was only one intention behind that and it was to make sure Plushenko would not win in Vancouver. It is reprehensible behavior.
There is nothing that needed to be defended in that email.

Some people, including the poster above me, seem to think that Joe Inman is all-powerful and capable of controlling what the actual judges would do in Vancouver, and the judges in Vancouver like thoughtless puppets without any expertise and understanding of the sport, which I find completely ridiculous.
Right, it was all about bringing down King Plushenko. :rolleyes:

senorita
04-26-2011, 10:00 AM
There's a long thread on the topic (http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=71391) in the archives, if you have access to it.

Basically, after 2010 Europeans Plushenko made a comment to the effect that he (and he also named Brian Joubert) focused on difficult jumps rather than transitions.

Joe Inman, who is a high-ranking American judge involved with international judge training, sent an e-mail to many international judges quoting Plushenko's comments and asking "What does that translate into a mark?"

Some observers interpreted this as an instruction to lower Plushenko's and Joubert's marks specifically.

Personally, I just see it as a reminder to judge the components independently based on what the skater puts on the ice -- if there aren't many transitions (as even the skater admits), then take that into account when assigning the mark for the transitions component, regardless of the skater's nationality, reputation, or jump content.
I really always appreciate your posts, but do judges need a reminder or a skater's comment to remember judging correctly? And why they had not done it during the whole season? Why Mr Inman didnt send his mail in the beginning of Olympic season to remind judges about pcs faults? If you shower a skater with sky pcs marks in GP and Euros, what exactly feedback do you give to him to improve by Olys? HE had even less transitions in the beginning of season and if they had marked him correctly his team would be alarmed.
Plushenko had also said (and many other in that era, even a judge) that Evans axel is like a salcow, why Inman didnt use this comment as well? In my little mind even if you want to remind judges to mark correctly you dont do it using as example a competing skater, the European Champion two weeks before Olympics. Yes sure, Plushenko said it in a press conference of a show in Slovakia which Inman and the rest of us just read the report of it, Plushenko can say what he wants but he is an athlete and he doesnt put the marks, if he had admitted he likes Barbie, Inman would call him Ken?
If a european or whatever judge had sent a reminder, watch out Lysacek's axel cause he skids it two weeks before Olys, how would it look?

senorita
04-26-2011, 10:08 AM
There is nothing that needed to be defended in that email.

Some people, including the poster above me, seem to think that Joe Inman is all-powerful and capable of controlling what the actual judges would do in Vancouver, and the judges in Vancouver like thoughtless puppets without any expertise and understanding of the sport, which I find completely ridiculous.


I agree, he was not that powerful but Mr Inman probably thought otherwise cause he thought he should remind judges that werent doing their job correct by then. And the thing was not the email itself that they may exchange 100 per day, but being published and the whole fuss in the press after. It is not about Plushenko alone, it would be the same for any skater competing at Olys.

briancoogaert
04-26-2011, 01:01 PM
I really always appreciate your posts, but do judges need a reminder or a skater's comment to remember judging correctly? And why they had not done it during the whole season? Why Mr Inman didnt send his mail in the beginning of Olympic season to remind judges about pcs faults? If you shower a skater with sky pcs marks in GP and Euros, what exactly feedback do you give to him to improve by Olys? HE had even less transitions in the beginning of season and if they had marked him correctly his team would be alarmed.
Well, because GP and Euros were overscored, judges should have judged Olympics higher ? :confused:
Anyway, it's still judged by comparison, so, if you don't change the marks of Plushenko, you have to mark other skaters higher. And it doesn't change the final results.
Plus, Plushenko himself knew he had zero transition. I find it weird to complain about his marks. If I'm never penalized for jumping the lights, I won't complain the day I will. ;)

senorita
04-26-2011, 01:26 PM
Well, because GP and Euros were overscored, judges should have judged Olympics higher ? :confused:

no I didnt say anything like this, at least I didnt mean it. :) I said you score a skater through out the season with specific marks and dont give him any feedback that he has no transitions and suddently there is a mail that invites judges to mark what they see, just before Olympics. I m pretty sure their job was to mark what they see in the competitions before Vancouver as well. Whatever Plushenko thinks of his transitions, it is not the athlete's job to mark them and it is not judges job to listen to a skater's opinion. Put him 5 since the begining, to make him change to 7 by Olympics. But if he keeps gettin 7s for the same program in the season(i m not counting the rocket marks at nationals), how exactly you sent him the message and mark him in Vancouver with 5s? yes it is a different pannel, but forget Plushenko, I m sure any athelte takes feedback of their previous marks in the season for almost the same skate. I m saying it cause this was the Oly season, that skaters change etc their program, costumes accordingly not another competition that skaters were just overmarked.

Like Lysacek's pcs rose after worlds 2009 10 whole points, it would be also weird to give him pcs back to 70 in Vancouver while the rest of olympic season he was marked much higher and he knows his pcs are not in the 70s.

misskarne
04-26-2011, 02:55 PM
no I didnt say anything like this, at least I didnt mean it. :) I said you score a skater through out the season with specific marks and dont give him any feedback that he has no transitions and suddently there is a mail that invites judges to mark what they see, just before Olympics. I m pretty sure their job was to mark what they see in the competitions before Vancouver as well. Whatever Plushenko thinks of his transitions, it is not the athlete's job to mark them and it is not judges job to listen to a skater's opinion. Put him 5 since the begining, to make him change to 7 by Olympics. But if he keeps gettin 7s for the same program in the season(i m not counting the rocket marks at nationals), how exactly you sent him the message and mark him in Vancouver with 5s? yes it is a different pannel, but forget Plushenko, I m sure any athelte takes feedback of their previous marks in the season for almost the same skate. I m saying it cause this was the Oly season, that skaters change etc their program, costumes accordingly not another competition that skaters were just overmarked.


Thankyou, Senorita. This pretty much sums up my thoughts perfectly.

The judges gave Plushenko no indication that he needed more transitions or that they would punish him for lack thereof. He was getting good scores. And then suddenly the Inman email comes through and his score takes a hit. That's not coincidence. Judges aren't stupid. They were marking what they saw (and like everyone, I exclude RN - 100 for an SP...oh dear) before Vancouver.

Regardless of how the email was intended, it was still an evil thing to do. It was an attempt to manipulate the marking in Vancouver before the competition ever began, and should be treated as such. It was utterly reprehensible.

Vagabond
04-26-2011, 05:16 PM
Personally, I just see it as a reminder to judge the components independently based on what the skater puts on the ice -- if there aren't many transitions (as even the skater admits), then take that into account when assigning the mark for the transitions component, regardless of the skater's nationality, reputation, or jump content.

Heaven forbid that fair play and impartiality should ever interfere with sports. ;)

briancoogaert
04-26-2011, 05:29 PM
no I didnt say anything like this, at least I didnt mean it. :) I said you score a skater through out the season with specific marks and dont give him any feedback that he has no transitions and suddently there is a mail that invites judges to mark what they see, just before Olympics. I m pretty sure their job was to mark what they see in the competitions before Vancouver as well. Whatever Plushenko thinks of his transitions, it is not the athlete's job to mark them and it is not judges job to listen to a skater's opinion. Put him 5 since the begining, to make him change to 7 by Olympics. But if he keeps gettin 7s for the same program in the season(i m not counting the rocket marks at nationals), how exactly you sent him the message and mark him in Vancouver with 5s? yes it is a different pannel, but forget Plushenko, I m sure any athelte takes feedback of their previous marks in the season for almost the same skate. I m saying it cause this was the Oly season, that skaters change etc their program, costumes accordingly not another competition that skaters were just overmarked.

Like Lysacek's pcs rose after worlds 2009 10 whole points, it would be also weird to give him pcs back to 70 in Vancouver while the rest of olympic season he was marked much higher and he knows his pcs are not in the 70s.
I see what you mean, and that's the same about Flutz. Skaters have been allowed to Flutz, and then, suddenly, are punished for that.
But I think the judging system is clear about PCS, and the fact that Plushenko was "lucky" to get unpunished for so long doesn't make him "unlucky" to have been punished at the Olympics. It was normal to get lower marks. ;)

senorita
04-26-2011, 06:57 PM
I agree,my point is he should have gotten lower marks for this much earlier, it is not a luck to be dropped like a patato from what you were havin for the same program all season just because you were lucky before? did skaters seek this luck? as clear as it may be, transitions mark isnt put by the kilo, now i did a kilo, I m in the 8s.
On the other hand he got called for his flip the very first time in CoR and got rid of it (the flip not the call:P) I mean in general why not give the skaters feedback and alarm them to improve instead of let them based on a lucky judge pannel everytime?

shine
04-26-2011, 08:46 PM
I agree,my point is he should have gotten lower marks for this much earlier, it is not a luck to be dropped like a patato from what you were havin for the same program all season just because you were lucky before? did skaters seek this luck? as clear as it may be, transitions mark isnt put by the kilo, now i did a kilo, I m in the 8s.
On the other hand he got called for his flip the very first time in CoR and got rid of it (the flip not the call:P) I mean in general why not give the skaters feedback and alarm them to improve instead of let them based on a lucky judge pannel everytime?
But two wrongs don't make it right.

I think many Plushenko fans have this conception that if Plushenko goes out, lands a quad and skates relatively cleanly, he would receive PCS in the 8s and 9s and win. In the past, results probably have proven this true but really, why should that be the case?

It's true that Plushenko should have gotten a stronger signal from the judges that his programs were not good enough. But for someone who was away for as long as he was, I'm sure he could have gotten some feedback one way or the other if he really wanted.
At the same time, it was no one's fault that he came back only in the Olympic year and wasn't able to adjust to the changes that skating and COP have gone through since the last Olympics.
Regarding Inman, others have mentioned that he has always been actively involved in seminars educating other judges the criteria of PCS since the implementation of COP. He didn't JUST start talking about it right before the Olympics. Perhaps the timing wasn't the best, but I think it's understandable that he pursued something as drastic as he did (sending out the email) since there was a stronger incentive to see PCS marked right (whether you agree with him or not on what is right) for a defining competition like the Olympics. You can't deny that the it is a much more significant event than any of the GPs or Europeans or 4CC.
And finally, was his mark at he Oly really that much lower than what he had been receiving all season?