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gkelly
04-20-2011, 04:34 PM
His quadlessness and 3A insufficiency weren't about the years he competed in, but about his inabilities.

And yet, quadlessness and 3A-lessness didn't hurt Scott Hamilton at all, although others were trying them at the Olympics that he won. So the year of competition does make some difference.

ciocio
04-20-2011, 04:45 PM
How predictable. You can't even explain why Plushenko was better in 2006 than Lysacek was in 2010, even though both were scored under CoP.

First of all because he scored higher and you know the base value of some elements was lower in 2006, skaters were receiving lower PCS than now, etc.
You suggest to correct Plushenko´s PCS and give him let´s say, 5´s for transitions, which will reduce his score. Let´s also give him lower marks for choreography and interpretation in LP. Ok. But I can do the same with Lysacek´s PCS so the result won´t change.

VarBar
04-20-2011, 08:22 PM
Boitano 1988 vs. Lysacek 2010: Jumps and presentation for Boitano, but spins and footwork for Lysacek. SP and LP combined: overall, probably Boitano if we're using 6.0, but not by much. If we're using CoP, it might be Lysacek.

Kulik 1998 vs. Lysacek 2010: Lysacek's SP was clearly better. Kulik had a 3A+3T combo and a 3Z, but his third jump was only a 2A, whereas Lysacek's jumps were 3A, 3Z+3T, and 3F. Lysacek's spins and footwork were much harder, and I'd give him the nod on the second mark too. In the LP, Kulik had a 4T, 3A+3T, and 3A, whereas Lysacek had a (shaky) 3A+2T and a 3A, but Kulik failed to execute his only other planned combination, a 3S+3T, which he turned into 3S, steps, 3T, while Lysacek also did a 3Z+3T and a 3F+2T+2R. Lysacek's LP spins, footwork, and jump entrances were much more difficult than Kulik's. The second mark, if judged under 6.0, could go either way, but under CoP would have to go to Lysacek. SP and LP combined: Lysacek. A 4T and better 3A technique aren't everything.

Podium 2002 vs. Lysacek 2010: Salt Lake City was the apotheosis of 6.0 skating. I'd give this matchup to Yagudin, Plushenko, and Goebel, but I'm not sure how well they would hold up if they were judged under the exacting standards of CoP as it existed in 2010.

Plushenko 2006 vs. Lysacek 2010: Plushenko's score was 258.33; Lysacek's was 257.67. Plushenko's LP was front-loaded and short on transitions. His marks for those Components (and Interpretation) should have been lower than Savoie's. (If you hunt around in the Archves, you will find a detailed analysis of the transitions in Plushenko, Buttle, Lambiel, and Savoie's LP's. It's enough to make you wonder how Plushenko even scored in the 5's on that Component.) With those corrections, Plushenko's total score should have been less than 257.67. I'd give this one to Lysacek.

Okay, I admit Lysacek is the best figure skater of all time and the most loved on top of it. Happy now?:lol:

personwhoishere
04-20-2011, 08:55 PM
Well, we all know L. is diligent. But there are certain things in skating that cannot be learnt or worked-out. Either you have "it", or not. :cold:

Maybe so, but I'd much rather be an Olympic champion without "it" than someone who does have "it" -according to many people here, Lambiel, Abbott, Chan, Takahashi, Buttle- that isn't.

Call Lysacek the inferior skater all you want, it won't take away what he's accomplished.

Zokko!
04-20-2011, 09:53 PM
-according to many people here, Lambiel, Abbott, Takahashi, ButtleAbbott has "it"? That's new to me. I admit he's far more talented than Lysacek, but "it"??? I've always find him rather boring ... :shuffle:

personwhoishere
04-20-2011, 10:43 PM
Abbott has "it"? :confused: That's new to me. I admit he's far more talented than Lysacek, but "it"??? I've always find him rather boring ... :shuffle:

Oh, I have too. I've just seen so many people here fall all over themselves about him. The skaters I posted are not necessarily my own opinions; most of my favorites tend to get ripped apart here for one reason or another.

senorita
04-20-2011, 10:49 PM
How predictable. You can't even explain why Plushenko was better in 2006 than Lysacek was in 2010, even though both were scored under CoP.

Objectively speaking you really think as the olympic quad from 2002 -2006 had turned out, if Plushenko skated his 2006 programs as he did and Lysacek skated his programs of 2010 as he did, Lysacek would/should have won?
In 2004 Worlds most skaters skated lights out and still didnt.
Realistically the two that could have beaten Evgeni was Lambiel and Joubert back in 2006.

Holley Calmes
04-20-2011, 11:14 PM
I have said many times that although I'm not a huge Plushenko fan, I admire him, respect him, and think he's one of the all-time greatest male skaters.

I just wanted to make that clear, because for all the wonderful, beautiful programs I have seen him perform, that 2006 Olympic LP looked to be "phoned in." Lacking his usual passion. I wouldn't put it anywhere near the best all time men's programs anywhere. He might have done everything correctly but it wasn't inspiring. Again, JMO.

I enjoyed his 2002 LP infinitely more. He was magnificent there. 2006 wasn't nearly as wonderful.

senorita
04-20-2011, 11:33 PM
^yes me too, I enjoyed his Lp in 2002 much much more. 2006 Lp was just operational. Stil with my perception of how things were in 2006, I doubt Lysacek could beat the 2006 Plushenko even if he jumped a quad and landed on the moon(+3Goe).

Vagabond
04-20-2011, 11:55 PM
Objectively speaking you really think as the olympic quad from 2002 -2006 had turned out, if Plushenko skated his 2006 programs as he did and Lysacek skated his programs of 2010 as he did, Lysacek would/should have won?

Would have? I can't say.

Should have? Yes, for the reason stated above.

PCS for 2006 Olympics Men's LP:

Plushenko 82.42
Buttle 78.50
Lambiel 76.28
Savoie 71.72
Van der Perren 66.01
Klimkin 65.22

There's no way that Plushenko's PCS should have been as high as Savoie's, but it should have been somewhat higher than Van der Perren's. Even if one assumes that Savoie was grossly undermarked, a score of about 68 or 69 seems reasonable for what Plushenko actually did.

I could quibble over some of the other marks Plushenko and Lysacek received, but I don't think they were anywhere near as much out of line as Plushenko's LP PCS.

misskarne
04-21-2011, 04:05 AM
I have said many times that although I'm not a huge Plushenko fan, I admire him, respect him, and think he's one of the all-time greatest male skaters.

I just wanted to make that clear, because for all the wonderful, beautiful programs I have seen him perform, that 2006 Olympic LP looked to be "phoned in." Lacking his usual passion. I wouldn't put it anywhere near the best all time men's programs anywhere. He might have done everything correctly but it wasn't inspiring. Again, JMO.

I enjoyed his 2002 LP infinitely more. He was magnificent there. 2006 wasn't nearly as wonderful.

I must concur with this. I am a huge fan of his and his Olympic LP in 06 was definitely not his best performance of the Godfather. The program itself wasn't bad - but he actually says in his book that the lack of emotion was a conscious decision on his part, a sacrifice he made in order to make absolutely sure he went completely clean.

The main difference between his 02 LP and his 06 LP was this: In 02, he had nothing to lose, up against a rival he knew was as good as he was. He knew he had to pull out all the stops to win and he did (he didn't win, but it was awesome anyway). In 06, he knew there was no-one who was his match, no-one good enough to match him. The only way he was really going to lose was if he fell or made several major mistakes. So he decided to play it safe (because a 4T-3T-2Lo is so safe :lol:) and focus on picking up the points. I'm sure he wasn't happy about it, but it got the job done.

Marco
04-21-2011, 04:20 AM
And yet, quadlessness and 3A-lessness didn't hurt Scott Hamilton at all, although others were trying them at the Olympics that he won. So the year of competition does make some difference.

Kind of like the ladies. The jump content of the Champion in 1992 vs 1994 was very different, same as from 1998 & 2002 vs 2006.

ZuZu
04-21-2011, 06:35 AM
Maybe so, but I'd much rather be an Olympic champion without "it" than someone who does have "it" -according to many people here, Lambiel, Abbott, Chan, Takahashi, Buttle- that isn't.

Call Lysacek the inferior skater all you want, it won't take away what he's accomplished.Can't help. The guy (Lysacek) is so underwhelming in every aspect of skating, winning that particular title doesn't make him better in my eyes, it makes it even worse as a fact. :(

theshrew
04-21-2011, 06:36 AM
There's no way that Plushenko's PCS should have been as high as Savoie's, but it should have been somewhat higher than Van der Perren's. Even if one assumes that Savoie was grossly undermarked, a score of about 68 or 69 seems reasonable for what Plushenko actually did.


Your way of reasoning is truly something.
I like how you totally dismiss the marks given by the judges but use various opinions expressed here by fans more or less knowledgeable to justify your own opinions :lol:

bbkenn
04-21-2011, 06:57 AM
Going for broke is different to taking risks. Everyone takes risks.

Quad or no quad: Yagudin didn't go for broke in 2002 (no 2nd 3axel and no 2nd combo). Plushenko didn't go for broke in 2006. Lysacek didn't go for broke in 2010. In Lysacek's case though, he was lucky because the leader underperformed and his 'technically reserved' skate was sufficient for gold.

Kulik and Lipinski went for broke in 1998. Hughes went for broke in 2002.

Elvis Stojko went for broke in 1994 but came short to Alexei Urmanov.