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taf2002
10-21-2011, 09:17 PM
There you missinterpred my post. I don't put her down in any way. I actually spoke about a "fantastic champion". It's not putting her down ! However she is human and has the right to feel like a human being. It's not insulting in any way to think that someone can expect to win.

Using the word "expect" can imply "delusional" in this case, therefore it was insulting. You implied she was being delusional by expecting to win with her weak content or else she was lying about just wanting to have fun.

If I entered a wet t-shirt contest & said I expect to win, everyone would think I was delusional (especially since my "girls" are not that impressive). But if I said I just wanted to have fun & you doubted my word, then yes, I have the right to think you were insulting me.

Artifice
10-24-2011, 09:51 AM
Hedwig, did I say or mean that adult skaters are cheating bastards ? Never ever, so, this is your personal view and obviously this is not the kind of interpretation I have.
I personnaly make an effort to discuss in a langage that is not my primary langage, therefore the person who reads my post can understand that and get the meaning beyond the pure words and vocabulary differences, or not.
I can't share my point with someone who doesn't want to understand it.
And you stick with your misinterpred idea of what I said, and that, whatever I can say after.
We obviously never met and you've never met all the skaters I've met, and you can't speak for others. It's not because some of the skaters you know told you this or that that all the skaters think the same. And the fact that some people think the contrary of what you said proves that your opinion is not the only one.

Artifice
10-24-2011, 10:04 AM
Using the word "expect" can imply "delusional" in this case, therefore it was insulting. You implied she was being delusional by expecting to win with her weak content or else she was lying about just wanting to have fun.

If I entered a wet t-shirt contest & said I expect to win, everyone would think I was delusional (especially since my "girls" are not that impressive). But if I said I just wanted to have fun & you doubted my word, then yes, I have the right to think you were insulting me.

I don't know if the word "expect" was not the right word to use. My only point was to say that it is possible to want to have fun and to hope for a win. It's not exclusive necessarely.

So, I don't doubt automatically if you say you only want to have fun in a wet t-shirt contest. And if it happens that you behave like you actually wanted to win, while saying the contrary, then I can legitimately question you, and you can answer sincerely. I will believe you if you are sincere. No reason to feel insulted there. By the way there are more important things in life than that IMO.

Aussie Willy
10-24-2011, 10:55 AM
Sorry but I don't generalize, that's why I can tell when someone is actually generalizing.
As others have said pretty much everything you have posted is a generalisation and you also have made a lot of assumptions. So if you can't tell that you are doing it yourself, how do you tell that others are doing it?

Artifice
10-24-2011, 10:08 PM
As others have said pretty much everything you have posted is a generalisation and you also have made a lot of assumptions. So if you can't tell that you are doing it yourself, how do you tell that others are doing it?

Because I didn't generalize. And because when someone says that all skaters want to have fun only and that everyone calls the competition in Germany a world championship, this is actually a generalization. The fact is that not everybody think that way, far from it. That is actually not that hard to understand.
Eveything I said a generalization ? Let me laugh, I only added some balance, your next post will probably say that I'm accusing the full world of cheating and all skaters being like Tonya Harding, because you extrapolate to a point that it's becomes a joke.

Aussie Willy
10-25-2011, 02:29 AM
Because I didn't generalize. And because when someone says that all skaters want to have fun only and that everyone calls the competition in Germany a world championship, this is actually a generalization. The fact is that not everybody think that way, far from it. That is actually not that hard to understand.
Eveything I said a generalization ? Let me laugh, I only added some balance, your next post will probably say that I'm accusing the full world of cheating and all skaters being like Tonya Harding, because you extrapolate to a point that it's becomes a joke.
:lol: Why would I say that? That is not relevant to the discussion at hand.

The posts you made about Midori Ito are full of generalisations and assumptions. Most other posters here have called you out on it which you don't seem to accept.

Sorry you are the pot calling the kettle black and it is not appreciated. You need to recognise when you are doing it yourself instead of criticising others for doing it.

antmanb
10-25-2011, 02:26 PM
Because I didn't generalize.

Yes you did! Others have even quoted your own posts back to you to show you how you generalised, so you are either being purposefully obtuse or you are too stupid to know what a generalisation is, which makes it even funnier that you accused others of generalising :rofl:

Artifice
10-27-2011, 02:10 PM
This statement is generalizing:



Maybe you meant that some of them are here because they like it, some of them are here also because they want to perform and get a good result, some both, some for other reasons altogether.

But that's not what you wrote. You just wrote "they" as if it applied to all adult skaters. That's why you got the reaction that you did.

This is not a generalization because I also said :
"Yes of course they are here because they like it, but they are here also because they want to perform and get a good result. (If skaters were there only to have fun we wouldn't see gold level skaters in the silver category, nor silver level skaters in the bronze category, neither would we see silver level skaters in the master category - in order to compete against fewer skaters and make a podium with 3 competitors ! - and neither would we see skaters crying after a so so performance).
That is to show that for some people the cup and podium is more important than their own personal performance."

I actually talked about "some", not all. I could have replaced my first "they" by "some", directly though. But the fact that I said "some" after in my post should have made you understand my idea at the beginning.
That's why I can say that many skaters can be there to have fun, but for a part, it's not the only thing that drive them.
Taking a quote and puting it out of its context allows to make any wrong interpretation. This is something known in the journalistic world, used by some poor professionnals in order to make others believe whatever they want, that very often is actually not true.

antmanb : If you are there only to say that someone is stupid from your point of view, I don't find this to be a clever remark. Maybe you should at first ask yourself if you may have misunderstood something or asked for clarification when I said my opinion. That would have been something smarter. Or maybe you prefer to stick with the idea that if a few people said something, then it must be the truth for everyone. Of course, you probably wouldn't call it generalization.

gkelly
10-27-2011, 02:58 PM
I actually talked about "some", not all. I could have replaced my first "they" by "some", directly though. But the fact that I said "some" after in my post should have made you understand my idea at the beginning.

No, that's not the way pronouns work, at least not in English. If you say "they" it refers back to the most immediate plural noun preceding it, not to a several sentences later "some" in the following paragraph.

You wrote:

She said skaters are there for fun. Yes of course they are here because they like it, but they are here also because they want to perform and get a good result. (and then everything else afterward

In standard use of English, "skaters" in the first sentence quoted here means all skaters. It's a generalization. (In your first language, maybe a similar use of a noun without qualification could imply some.) And the "they" in the following sentence means the same thing as its antecedent, "skaters," in the preceding sentence.

I understand now, after your many posts denying that you meant what those sentences mean, that that's not the meaning you intended to convey.

I'll attribute it to your inadequate command of written English language and acknowledge that the whole debate was based on a misunderstanding of what you really intended to say.

All this could have been cleared up many pages ago if you'd just say "Oops, I didn't express my intention correctly. What I really meant was..." instead of blaming everyone else for misunderstanding when they were just reacting to what you actually wrote.

antmanb
10-27-2011, 04:49 PM
antmanb : If you are there only to say that someone is stupid from your point of view, I don't find this to be a clever remark. Maybe you should at first ask yourself if you may have misunderstood something or asked for clarification when I said my opinion. That would have been something smarter. Or maybe you prefer to stick with the idea that if a few people said something, then it must be the truth for everyone. Of course, you probably wouldn't call it generalization.

It wasn't my intention to make a clever remark, i was simply asking you if you were being purposefully obtuse, or openly idiot. I am still none the wiser.

Hedwig
10-27-2011, 05:34 PM
All this could have been cleared up many pages ago if you'd just say "Oops, I didn't express my intention correctly. What I really meant was..." instead of blaming everyone else for misunderstanding when they were just reacting to what you actually wrote.

Word.

Artifice
10-27-2011, 08:27 PM
It wasn't my intention to make a clever remark,

Indeed. :lol:

Artifice
10-27-2011, 08:33 PM
All this could have been cleared up many pages ago if you'd just say "Oops, I didn't express my intention correctly. What I really meant was..." instead of blaming everyone else for misunderstanding when they were just reacting to what you actually wrote.

Here is what I said "many pages ago", indeed :




It's also possible that I didn't explain that well what I think, but in that case you should have asked for clarification.

Did you ask for clarification ?

Hedwig
10-27-2011, 08:41 PM
Did you ask for clarification ?

I will say something where you don't need to ask for clarification: You come across as a complete asshole.

You generalize and you attack people (whether it is Midori, adult skaters or people on this board). This may be due to language issues but when people tell you that you come across like an asshole you don't say that you are sorry but that you meant something else but you think that it is up to other people to guess your meaning or ask again while all you do is attacking them and telling them how stupid they are and how they generalise while you don't.
btw, you think your language skills are good enough to differentiate enough so that you can tell who generalizes and yours are so excellent that you don't but you are not able to bring across the other meaning of your posts without someone having to write a whole interpretory book about it? Bullshit. You were first hiding behind "you are all generalising and I am not" and now you are hiding behind "poor little me cannot talk English and you are all so meeeeeaaan and should have asked what I meant".

A decent person would just have apologized about having created misunderstandings and having insulted people right left and center and wrote what they meant to say - like gkelly pointed out earlier.

MacMadame
10-27-2011, 09:02 PM
Did you ask for clarification ?
Apparently you think that it's our job to somehow figure out that what you said, which was expressed quite clearly and wasn't open to interpretation at all, isn't what you actually meant to say and ask you to restate it when it's actually your job to express yourself clearly in the first place and, when that doesn't happen, to explain what you actual meant when it's clear that everyone else has interpreted it exactly the same way and therefore you didn't do a good job expressing yourself.

While it's nice for the recipients of a communication to give the communicator the benefit of the doubt when it comes to things like tone of voice or intention, the onus for expressing an idea accurately is on the communicator.

P.S. "I don't generalize" is a generalization. ;)