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ioana
10-20-2011, 08:52 PM
I haven't been on a competitive level when I was young but I am still very ambitious on the ice and get upset as well when I train hours and hours for something and it still doesn't go as well as I want it to.

Oh, I definitely didn't mean to imply former competitive skaters were alone in that mindset. Just that it seems to be more common for them. The skater I mentioned got upset when things didn't go well in a regular practice, not only for a competitive program or a show. It basically goes back to your frame of reference. Once you were able to do an element well, with a certain height, run-out, rotations and what have you, it's hard to be satisfied with what feels like a sub-par version of that.

I only skated on public session when I was young so the first time I landed a flip or an axel was exactly that. I didn't have any prior attempts to compare them to. You can always work on improving your skills, but I think that's different than feeling like you could (and should) be able to do whatever jump or spin you're working on better because you know that used to be case.

I guess I'm just trying to say it's possible for Midori to have fun while she skated because she's been away from competitions for a long time, but still want to do better next time around. And not in terms of results, but just when it comes to her own program execution. Like you said, I think itís fairly clear she didnít show up to Obersdorf with a COP-friendly program. I would assume thatís because she didnít really care about the results, not because she wouldnít be able to use the COP to maximize her current jumping ability. This isnít Nobunari Oda weíre talking about, after all :P

Hedwig
10-20-2011, 09:07 PM
Like you said, I think itís fairly clear she didnít show up to Obersdorf with a COP-friendly program. I would assume thatís because she didnít really care about the results, not because she wouldnít be able to use the COP to maximize her current jumping ability. This isnít Nobunari Oda weíre talking about, after all :P

:rofl:

C_T_T_
10-20-2011, 09:30 PM
Oh, I definitely didn't mean to imply former competitive skaters were alone in that mindset. Just that it seems to be more common for them. The skater I mentioned got upset when things didn't go well in a regular practice, not only for a competitive program or a show. It basically goes back to your frame of reference. Once you were able to do an element well, with a certain height, run-out, rotations and what have you, it's hard to be satisfied with what feels like a sub-par version of that.

I only skated on public session when I was young so the first time I landed a flip or an axel was exactly that. I didn't have any prior attempts to compare them to. You can always work on improving your skills, but I think that's different than feeling like you could (and should) be able to do whatever jump or spin you're working on better because you know that used to be case.

That's exactly how I feel on a regular basis! I used to do axels and a few doubles without thinking but now all I can do are some very average sinlges. I know some people would love to have my jumps but comparing them to 15 years ago, I can't get excited about them! On the days when I can't get anywhere near an axel I'm very, very fustrated. Even when I can land a slow scratchy one, I don't get much statisfaction from it. I have started to accept I probably won't get my doubles back now but I can still try! IF I ever land one again, it'll mean so much to me, it'll be worth all the fustration!

aemeraldrainc
10-20-2011, 10:04 PM
I would assume thatís because she didnít really care about the results, not because she wouldnít be able to use the COP to maximize her current jumping ability. This isnít Nobunari Oda weíre talking about, after all :P
:rofl: Good one. Sad, but true. :lol:

Aussie Willy
10-21-2011, 12:21 AM
I'm not generalizing anything, that is maybe why you don't get what I mean because if you thing I generalize, you then don't get the meaning of my posts. It's also possible that I didn't explain that well what I think, but in that case you should have asked for clarification.
Actually I understand perfectly. But don't tell people they are generalising when you have been doing exactly the same thing yourself.

Aussie Willy
10-21-2011, 12:23 AM
In my experience, all adult skaters who got to a reasonably competitive level when they were younger are harder on themselves and expect more out of their program delivery. I'm not sure whether that translates in a certain placement expectation, but a former Junior Sectionals skater who skated at my rink would always get upset when she missed her 2toe-2toe combination. I was always :eek: just seeing her rotate both jumps and get very good height and distance on them...

That said, I agree that's different from saying you show up and expect to win.
I have found that too. There are quite a few skaters ex-competitve skaters who just like to have a skate. But they are so frustrated that they cannot do what they used to and have very high expectations of what they should be able to do.

Artifice
10-21-2011, 03:46 PM
Actually I understand perfectly. But don't tell people they are generalising when you have been doing exactly the same thing yourself.

Sorry but I don't generalize, that's why I can tell when someone is actually generalizing.

gkelly
10-21-2011, 03:51 PM
Sorry but I don't generalize, that's why I can tell when someone is actually generalizing.

This statement is generalizing:


Yes of course they are here because they like it, but they are here also because they want to perform and get a good result.

Maybe you meant that some of them are here because they like it, some of them are here also because they want to perform and get a good result, some both, some for other reasons altogether.

But that's not what you wrote. You just wrote "they" as if it applied to all adult skaters. That's why you got the reaction that you did.

allezfred
10-21-2011, 04:51 PM
Who knows what she had actually in mind ?

http://www.ifsmagazine.com/articles/611-midori-ito-returns-to-competition


The result, however, did not seem to bother the Japanese star. ďThat was my first competition in 15 years. The sport has changed a lot,Ē said Ito, who turned 42 on August 13. ďI didnít want to show many jumps in the competition, but more my joy of skating. Obviously Iím not as good technically as I was before. I know that.Ē


ďWatching the other skaters I realized that this event is more about fun, and this was my attitude as well,Ē the Nagoya native said with a wide smile. ďI did this program myself, and I still have to get used to the new judging system. I donít have a choice; I just have to adapt. I was judged under it for the first time in Germany. Before, speed was important in footwork and spins, but now you have to show so many different positions.

ďAt the victory ceremony everyone was telling me that I needed to do more elements (to win). I saw the difficult elements the other skaters did, but for me, having fun was the most important part and the result doesnít matter. I saw a lot of people who were just enjoying skating and that gave me a lot of energy.Ē


I'm sure you know better what Midori Ito had in mind than Midori Ito herself though. ;)

VIETgrlTerifa
10-21-2011, 05:04 PM
Thanks for the link.
That is very interesting. Midori Ito looks like she is the regular adult skater, new in the IJS, she is just learning the rules and try to use them. It's very refreshing and shows that this fantastic champion is actually like other skaters, especially adults, who are many of returning skaters.
As for the result she got in Germany, I bet she didn't realize that it was a real competition and in order to win she needed some content. Not winning probably didn't feel comfortable for her, and this is natural. She thought she could show up, do a double axel, and win. But the lack of elements cost her. She said skaters are there for fun. Yes of course they are here because they like it, but they are here also because they want to perform and get a good result. (If skaters were there only to have fun we wouldn't see gold level skaters in the silver category, nor silver level skaters in the bronze category, neither would we see silver level skaters in the master category - in order to compete against fewer skaters and make a podium with 3 competitors ! - and neither would we see skaters crying after a so so performance).
That is to show that for some people the cup and podium is more important than their own personal performance.

I bet the next time Midori comes to Germany she will have a program with the right content in order to win points.

The reason why your original post got such strong reactions is because you made some strong assumptions on Midori's character (basically saying she's lying in her statements even though you have said that was not your intention), and this original post is full of generalizations. You say you don't generalize and that wasn't your intention, but if others read it that way, then that's how your post sounded.

Hedwig
10-21-2011, 05:28 PM
Sorry but I don't generalize, that's why I can tell when someone is actually generalizing.

That is a pretty bold statement for someone who is basically making generalisations about the whole of humanity like "people like winning and it is only human" and so on and were making generalizations in about every post you wrote. :lol:

I agree with what the posters said before - you were basically accussing Midori of lying and the basis for that was applying your own view of the world to the rest of humanity. Which is basically okay because that is how we derive our opinions at first. We judge others by what we experience and what we think and it is pretty hard for all of us to really really understand something that is alien to us - like for instance someone just wanting to have fun when you are someone who always would like to win in a competition. (I am not saying that you are such a person that was just an example) That is just human nature. We can learn with as life goes on to broaden our perspective and we can appreciate that others think in a different way than we do but our gut instinct which we fall back upon will always be our own way of thinking and our own experiences. This is similar to what MacMadame said earlier.

MacMadame
10-21-2011, 07:44 PM
For such a champion and competitor like Midori Ito who loves figure skating, it's not a surprise that she could be there to have a lot of fun AND to perform well.
You didn't say that in your original post. You said to have fun and WIN. There is a big difference between wanting to do well and wanting to win.

For example, in my last competition (a half marathon) I came in 187/400. Obviously, I was no where near winning. But I was happy because I did do well -- for me, at that time period given my own individual circumstances.

Artifice
10-21-2011, 07:51 PM
The problem that some didn't seem to understand is that I said after that I didn't accuse anyone of lying, only did I added some possibilities of what she could have felt also without saying it.
But a few people only remained on the first understanding of something that was probably not explained very clearly.
And these people refused to understand my next explanations. What can I say ? What someone understood was not what I said, I corrected my explanation so that the person could get my real meaning. If the person still doesn't (want to) get it, it's then pointless to go further.
It's not that a big deal anyway.

Hedwig, I perfectly get what you mean, and when I say it's human nature, I don't call it a generalization. What I call a generalization is when someone says that most adults call the competition this or that when they actually can only talk about their friends, or when someone say that most of adult skaters compete only for fun when others experience can prove the other way. That is generalization.
Anyway, we all have our views, and for sure I don't pretend that my view is shared by everyone. I just expect others to understand as well that their view is personal and doesn't concern "most" of the people.
I'm still pretty sure that some people will remain on their position and say "oh but I didn't understand that at first, and what I got at first is what you definitely mean". I can't do more in that case...

Hedwig
10-21-2011, 09:00 PM
Maybe this is a language barrier but with this post again I am baffled -
LIke this sentence:

What I call a generalization is when someone says that most adults call the competition this or that when they actually can only talk about their friends, or when someone say that most of adult skaters compete only for fun when others experience can prove the other way.
You say that some people's experience (all the people in this thread except for you) that all the skaters they know foremost want to have fun is a generalisation while other's people experience (in this thread = yours? ) is a proof that it is the other way round. :confused:

I have met about 100-150 adult skaters and at least 99% of them are doing this is a hobby and for having fun. I wouldn't put my money on it that all of them are that way but it is hard for me to see another reason for doing this.
With this wide number of skaters I know I wouldn't call it a bold hypthesis to say that most skaters do this to have fun.
And others backed me up in this so my hypothesis seems very sound.
I am perfectly sure that there are skaters who compete for other reasons than to have fun but from a very wide sample of people I know my hypothesis is that most people don't.
This isn't a very bold statement and it isn't a generalisation as such as the word "most" implies that this statement isn't about all skaters in the World.

Well, whatever, like you said it isn't very important. I just didn't like the tone in your posts where it sounded like you said that Midori Ito was lying and I also don't like that it leaves the impression that a lot of adult skaters are cheating bastards who only enter competitions strategically in order to win.

gkelly
10-21-2011, 09:07 PM
There might be some adult skaters (and non-adult skaters, for that matter), for whom winning is so much more fun than skating well without winning that they do everything within their power to try to win, and they have fun doing what it takes to win.

For those skaters, "skating for fun" and "skating to win" would be the same thing.

But in my experience that would be a small minority of adult skaters.