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antmanb
10-19-2011, 12:22 PM
Yes there is a ranking (don't know what about the "overall" but ranking there is). A ranking in competition, every competition has a ranking, that is actually why it is a competition. The competition in Germany is the most known example.

Do you simply mean the placement? The medalists or something else? I'm not aware of any rankings or anything else that would prompt skaters to have to compete. Perhaps I'm thinking too much of the language used in elite skating where the world rankings, Seasons Best rankings etc have specific meanings.

I'm not aware that adult skaters are ever "ranked" in the way that elite skaters are.

Artifice
10-19-2011, 12:29 PM
Competitions ranking, placement, it's similar.

Hedwig
10-19-2011, 01:38 PM
There isn't a world-standing, what the word "ranking" would imply. I think here is just something lost in translation.

From my own experience as well, most adult skaters don't go to competitions to win. A lot of skaters DO take part in groups when they could take part in higher groups but from my experience that has more to do with being humble and being afraid of being laughed at when they go to the higher ranked group.
This time at Worlds in Oberstdorf, the winner in the lowest rank group was flabbergasted at having won and said that oh, no, now she was morally obligated to take part in the group one higher and that she was much too bad to do that.
I think this is really more being humble and not wanting to presume that one is a good skater. Maybe that has something to do with the fact that adult skaters are often looked down upon by coaches, public and everyone.

gkelly
10-19-2011, 02:39 PM
It's your personal assumption. "Many" would have been more appropriate because as long as one didn't make any global statistic about the entire field of adult skaters (and not only about the few friends around someone) one can't conclude for everyone.
But many skaters also go there to have good ranking.

And some may do both, depending how important the good ranking is compared to the fun and camaraderie. That's a balance that competitive kids have to negotiate as well.

I expect that this particular adult competition attracts more serious competitors than most. Certainly among skaters from North America or Australia, or Japan. It costs a lot to get there in the first place. So the more recreationally oriented skater with a limited budget would not choose this event as the one to enter.

Bev Johnston
10-19-2011, 03:52 PM
I expect that this particular adult competition attracts more serious competitors than most. Certainly among skaters from North America or Australia, or Japan. It costs a lot to get there in the first place. So the more recreationally oriented skater with a limited budget would not choose this event as the one to enter.

Not so sure that is exactly true. Skaters from all levels go to this competition: bronze and silver, not just gold and masters. A lot of people I know who have gone see it as a vacation with some skating getting in the way. :)

Artifice
10-19-2011, 05:01 PM
This time at Worlds in Oberstdorf,

Oberstdorf competition is not Worlds, this is an open competition, nothing to do with a championship. There is no qualification process, people can enter whatever category they want. Nobody get out of the competition with a world title.

Hedwig
10-19-2011, 06:37 PM
Ranking and titles seem very important to you. ;)

It is called Adult Worlds among the skaters but of course, there are no regional competitions and no qualification process and shockingly the skaters are mostly there to have fun.

MacMadame
10-19-2011, 08:56 PM
It's your personal assumption.

And your personal assumption is that, no matter what she said and how she acted, Midori entered this competition expecting to win and was disappointed that she didn't and will change how she competes next time to insure she does win.

I suspect you are projecting your own thought processes onto her. You say that it's only "human nature" to want think like this. But actually what is human nature is to think that everyone else thinks like us and that the way we think is not merely "the way we think" but some more universal way of thinking.

Louise
10-19-2011, 09:34 PM
I suspect you are projecting your own thought processes onto her. You say that it's only "human nature" to want think like this. But actually what is human nature is to think that everyone else thinks like us and that the way we think is not merely "the way we think" but some more universal way of thinking.

While I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment, MacMadame, it (to me at least) is hard to imagine that a WORLD champion would not have the competitiveness in her to want to win when she goes out and competes. You don't get to be world champion by just having fun. Or maybe Midori Ito was one of those rare breeds whose talent coasted her through all that. It makes sense, because it seemed that anytime she had pressure on her, she failed to deliver. So I will believe she was just there to have fun. But you have to imagine, would Kwan or Lipinski compete at an adult worlds and just be happy to skate and NOT be there to win? A champion's mindset is pretty hard to erase.

It was great to see Midori Ito skating again. She's married again? Is this her second or third husband?

MacMadame
10-19-2011, 10:17 PM
I don't think you can back-project from today to when Midori was competing and say her attitude now was her attitude then though. It's been decades and her life has changed dramatically since her elite days.

Aussie Willy
10-19-2011, 10:23 PM
It's only a matter of not generalizing a personal experience.
I think you are doing a pretty good job of providing generalisations and quite a few assumptions as well that are being counteracted by a few others.

ioana
10-19-2011, 11:29 PM
In my experience, all adult skaters who got to a reasonably competitive level when they were younger are harder on themselves and expect more out of their program delivery. I'm not sure whether that translates in a certain placement expectation, but a former Junior Sectionals skater who skated at my rink would always get upset when she missed her 2toe-2toe combination. I was always :eek: just seeing her rotate both jumps and get very good height and distance on them...

That said, I agree that's different from saying you show up and expect to win.

essence_of_soy
10-19-2011, 11:34 PM
What strikes me about Midori's performance here was her tremendous joy in the kiss and cry. I don't think I ever saw her that happy after a skate, even when she was an eligible skater.

It must have been a nice feeling to do it for both herself, and the appreciative audience in attendance.

Artifice
10-20-2011, 03:09 PM
Ranking and titles seem very important to you. ;)
Absolutely not. You didn't get my point that is actually that skaters should compete in their category, not in an easier one. That means that placement should'nt count so much...


It is called Adult Worlds among the skaters
Absolutely not. It's a generalization, few skaters call it Worlds, and many others don't, because indeed it is not a world championship.


And your personal assumption is that, no matter what she said and how she acted, Midori entered this competition expecting to win and was disappointed that she didn't and will change how she competes next time to insure she does win.
No at all. You're wrong about the meaning of my post.


I suspect you are projecting your own thought processes onto her. You say that it's only "human nature" to want think like this. But actually what is human nature is to think that everyone else thinks like us and that the way we think is not merely "the way we think" but some more universal way of thinking.

Woohoo. You should'nt suspect so much then.
For such a champion and competitor like Midori Ito who loves figure skating, it's not a surprise that she could be there to have a lot of fun AND to perform well. Who knows what she had actually in mind ? Neither you nor I. One can't pretend she was there exclusively and only to skate. She could also expect to do well, it's a possibility. And it seems that for a few people it's hard to get that it is possible to want to have fun AND to perform well. Like adult skating was only about having fun on the ice. When you get to see many adult skaters in competitions you see that they often pretend to be there just for fun while they are entering lower categories and cry or jump around when they under perform or win. Personnaly I don't call that kind of behavior "having fun" or "challenging oneself", I call it bad winner (an easy win is not a win to me) or sour loser.
There is what people say and what they think, sometimes it's the same, sometimes it's different. And I was just pointing the fact that Midori Ito was very gracious and she could maybe also have expected something more.


While I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment, MacMadame, it (to me at least) is hard to imagine that a WORLD champion would not have the competitiveness in her to want to win when she goes out and competes. You don't get to be world champion by just having fun. Or maybe Midori Ito was one of those rare breeds whose talent coasted her through all that. It makes sense, because it seemed that anytime she had pressure on her, she failed to deliver. So I will believe she was just there to have fun. But you have to imagine, would Kwan or Lipinski compete at an adult worlds and just be happy to skate and NOT be there to win? A champion's mindset is pretty hard to erase.

Good point that actually matches what I said differently.


I think you are doing a pretty good job of providing generalisations
I'm not generalizing anything, that is maybe why you don't get what I mean because if you thing I generalize, you then don't get the meaning of my posts. It's also possible that I didn't explain that well what I think, but in that case you should have asked for clarification.

Hedwig
10-20-2011, 06:43 PM
In my experience, all adult skaters who got to a reasonably competitive level when they were younger are harder on themselves and expect more out of their program delivery. I'm not sure whether that translates in a certain placement expectation, but a former Junior Sectionals skater who skated at my rink would always get upset when she missed her 2toe-2toe combination. I was always :eek: just seeing her rotate both jumps and get very good height and distance on them...

That said, I agree that's different from saying you show up and expect to win.

I haven't been on a competitive level when I was young but I am still very ambitious on the ice and get upset as well when I train hours and hours for something and it still doesn't go as well as I want it to.
And most adult skaters I know are similar in that approach. I think it is really the kind of sport we choose - one has to train one small step for hours at a time - only a very ambitious or somehow weird person ;) would do that.

Therefore I also said that most skaters in adult competitions take their skates very seriously and are very upset when something doesn't go the way they wanted it to.

But as you said yourself - that is a very different mindset from wanting to win.
Of course winning is nice and a competition is a comparison against others but in the end figure skating is really mostly a competition with yourself and seeing if you can achieve to skate the elements you wanted to or if you could skate a program that people enjoyed - at least on the Adult level.



But coming back to Midori. If she had wanted to win, she would have. There is no doubt that she was the best skater in the competition and she could have crushed any one there. So clearly that wasn't her goal, otherwise she would have included some more (for easy) single and double jumps for instance. She didn't. But she can read. She knows the rules. So we can assume that what she said is true not only because she sounded sincere but also because her actions talk for her. She wasn't there to win a competition but to skate in one and enjoy it. Therefore she provided us with a great program and not with one that would only maximize her points.