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leafygreens
06-30-2011, 02:28 PM
I mean Jan skated very well for herself too, but I wouldn't make too much about her "beating" Ito.


Well, Midori didn't do as many jump passes as Jan Calnan as was stated earlier. Apparently Midori did 6 elements to Jan's 11.

That accounted for Calnan winning, so saying she "eclipsed" a Japanese legend is a bit much. However, Calnan should be proud of her accomplishment and she gave a great performance.



I strongly disagree with these statements. 6 elements vs. 11 elements is a huge gap. If Midori was capable of doing 11 elements to beat Jan, wouldn't she have? A competition is a time to prove how many elements you can do, so if Midori did not perform as many as Jan then we have to assume she is no longer capable of performing as many elements as Jan. Therefore it is absolutely accurate to say that Jan "eclipsed" Midori. Midori's individual elements were better and she has better speed, but she did not do enough maneuvers and if she was capable of performing more, she would have. I get that Midori has some die hard fans out there, but a spade is a spade and Jan was better than Midori in this competition.

Skittl1321
06-30-2011, 02:52 PM
IA competition is a time to prove how many elements you can do, so if Midori did not perform as many as Jan then we have to assume she is no longer capable of performing as many elements as Jan.

Not all adults view competition this way. Even if they are judged by IJS, in an open competition, you don't have to bow to it's demands the way elite skaters do.

Yes- Jan won. Without a doubt, Jan can say she beat Midori.

But I don't think that means Midori isn't capable of skating at a higher level. She may have chosen not to do additional elements because she wanted a beautiful graceful program that was fun for her. Or, as you said, maybe she didn't do anything else because she couldn't.

orbitz
06-30-2011, 04:21 PM
If Midori was capable of doing 11 elements to beat Jan, wouldn't she have?

Not if she had no intention of showing up all the adult skaters that were competing there. Midori knew the huge advantages she had coming into the competition over everyone else there. She probably just wanted the joy of performing in front of the audience again but definitely didn't want to show off how much better she was than everyone else. She always struck me as very humble.


I have no problem with Jan winning this event. She did what the rule asked and she performed beautifully. I just have a hard time buying that Midori had a hard time landing 2lp and 2toe when her 2A was huge and secured.

danceronice
06-30-2011, 07:58 PM
Considering the last time the idea of Midori competing at all was discussed was what, 1997, when there was some talk (read: pressure from her fed) to come back for Nagano, it's entirely possible she is wobbly on some elements and she definitely looked slower and less flexible than she used to be (not something she was known for anyway.) She probably DOESN'T have all the tools she used to, she might have been a little on edge (nerves or adrenaline), and that's totally reasonable! Jan's program had more elements, more difficult elements, and she skated with more power, which is also reasonable since she's been skating in Adult comps a lot longer.

No need to say Midori 'threw it' or suggest she didn't try, it's her first time out after a LONG LONG LONG layup. She wasn't going to skate like it was 1992 no matter what. If she keeps training and doing Adult comps, she still won't skate like it's 1992, but she might be more fluid. (I really would guess nerves/adrenaline. It's got to be a high skating in front of a competition crowd again.)

essence_of_soy
07-01-2011, 12:20 AM
Congratulations to both athletes on excellent skates. As people have already mentioned, they really looked like they were enjoying themselves out there.

Having someone like Ito with her competitive record skate, must be great publicity for adult skating, too.

Artifice
07-01-2011, 11:52 AM
Not all adults view competition this way. Even if they are judged by IJS, in an open competition, you don't have to bow to it's demands the way elite skaters do.

Yes- Jan won. Without a doubt, Jan can say she beat Midori.

But I don't think that means Midori isn't capable of skating at a higher level. She may have chosen not to do additional elements because she wanted a beautiful graceful program that was fun for her. Or, as you said, maybe she didn't do anything else because she couldn't.

Exactly.
ISU adult competition is the biggest competition for adult skaters but it's not a world championship, and with so many level categories it's not like results are that important. Especially in a 2 participants category.
Midori was beaten from a rules point of view, but who can question a world champion, olympic silver medalist, doing a great double axel of being superior to someone who doesn't have a tenth of her results ? Of course Midori is superior. Jan's win is a chance that shouldn't be taken for more than just a coincidence.
Winning is not everything especially in adult competitions. Even sometimes in those competitions results means nothing. But the point is not there. The point is to perform what the skater intended to perform. And enjoy.
Because like in bronze and silver categories, many skaters having higher skills just compete in these lower categories just to ensure a win or a medal. What's the point ? The win ? Ok but winning an adult competition is far less important than a win for an elite athlet at Worlds because consequences won't be the same : for an adult it won't change anything in his life, absolutely nothing. For an elite athlet a win means writing his name in the history of the sport, earning prizes money, getting professionnal opportunities... so definitely it is totally different.
But some adults still act like 6 years old child for whom a win is important. And sometimes it gets to a ridiculous level.


Not if she had no intention of showing up all the adult skaters that were competing there. Midori knew the huge advantages she had coming into the competition over everyone else there. She probably just wanted the joy of performing in front of the audience again but definitely didn't want to show off how much better she was than everyone else. She always struck me as very humble.


I have no problem with Jan winning this event. She did what the rule asked and she performed beautifully. I just have a hard time buying that Midori had a hard time landing 2lp and 2toe when her 2A was huge and secured.

Exactly as well !
It is indeed very humble to show up with less elements than the rules required. It showed that Midori was not obsessed with the competition spirit. Or maybe she didn't know enough the competitive spirit of adults in competition. She is new in this category and maybe next year she will come with a more competitive program. But her double axel speaks for itself. Her double toe was so easy as well, that it's hard to believe she could'nt have done a couple of other double jumps. Had she wanted she could have done them.
In that sense Midori gives the good exemple of what adult skating should be : performing first for the joy of skating, pushing oneself ahead with technical elements (like Midori did for her double axel). It shouldn't be a race for the one who will rack up points by playing only strategy. This is pointless.

Aussie Willy
07-01-2011, 12:36 PM
Considering the last time the idea of Midori competing at all was discussed was what, 1997, when there was some talk (read: pressure from her fed) to come back for Nagano, it's entirely possible she is wobbly on some elements and she definitely looked slower and less flexible than she used to be (not something she was known for anyway.) She probably DOESN'T have all the tools she used to, she might have been a little on edge (nerves or adrenaline), and that's totally reasonable! Jan's program had more elements, more difficult elements, and she skated with more power, which is also reasonable since she's been skating in Adult comps a lot longer.

No need to say Midori 'threw it' or suggest she didn't try, it's her first time out after a LONG LONG LONG layup. She wasn't going to skate like it was 1992 no matter what. If she keeps training and doing Adult comps, she still won't skate like it's 1992, but she might be more fluid. (I really would guess nerves/adrenaline. It's got to be a high skating in front of a competition crowd again.)
ITA. You would find most skaters who came back to competition would feel the same way.

AndyWarhol
07-01-2011, 12:36 PM
I think there is nothing wrong with wanting to win a competition you have entered. It is the entire point of a competition. Winning isn't everything, but it is a small gift for all the long hours of hard work, and repeat falls from doubles on bones that aren't so fresh any more (not that im talking about myself or anything :slinkaway )

Artifice
07-01-2011, 12:58 PM
I think there is nothing wrong with wanting to win a competition you have entered. It is the entire point of a competition. Winning isn't everything, but it is a small gift for all the long hours of hard work, and repeat falls from doubles on bones that aren't so fresh any more (not that im talking about myself or anything :slinkaway )

What do you prefer :

- a win with after a program not skated at its best, against a poor field,
or
- a lower rankink with a perfect program, against a strong field ?

Artifice
07-01-2011, 01:00 PM
I think there is nothing wrong with wanting to win a competition you have entered. It is the entire point of a competition. Winning isn't everything, but it is a small gift for all the long hours of hard work, and repeat falls from doubles on bones that aren't so fresh any more (not that im talking about myself or anything :slinkaway )

What do you prefer :

- a win after a program not skated at its best, against a poor field,
or
- a lower rankink with a perfect program, against a strong field ?

Artifice
07-01-2011, 01:00 PM
I think there is nothing wrong with wanting to win a competition you have entered. It is the entire point of a competition. Winning isn't everything, but it is a small gift for all the long hours of hard work, and repeat falls from doubles on bones that aren't so fresh any more (not that im talking about myself or anything :slinkaway )

What do you prefer :

- a win after a program not skated at its best, against a weak field,
or
- a lower rankink with a perfect program, against a strong field ?

Artifice
07-01-2011, 01:00 PM
I think there is nothing wrong with wanting to win a competition you have entered. It is the entire point of a competition. Winning isn't everything, but it is a small gift for all the long hours of hard work, and repeat falls from doubles on bones that aren't so fresh any more (not that im talking about myself or anything :slinkaway )

What do you prefer :

- a win after a program not skated at its best, against a weak field,
or
- a lower rankink with a perfect program, against a strong field ?

AndyWarhol
07-01-2011, 01:22 PM
a lower rank with a perfect program against a stronger field. I think there is also a sense of pride in competing in a higher field. So for me, 7th in gold would be better than 1st in silver. But, its a competition, you go to do your best and show everything you have worked so hard on.

Artifice
07-01-2011, 01:38 PM
Oops, sorry for the quadruple post !

Ok Andywharol, reading at your first post I thought you chose your program content and category in order to ensure a better ranking other than doing the best program you can do whatever the final ranking you get.

AndyWarhol
07-01-2011, 01:51 PM
HAHA, no. Skating for me is a $150 a week hobby at the moment, that is resulting in a very sore and bruised right hip, so, in my situation, to actually go to an international competition in germany (considering i live in melbourne), as much "fun" as it would be, I would also be there to get the highest ranking in the highest level possible for me.

That being said, i'm not Midori Ito, or any other great skating champion, so perhaps i would be more likely to be competitive as i haven't really achieved anything in skating.