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olympic
03-29-2011, 11:26 PM
^Interesting conversation.

Trenary had a splendid Axel - 3sal sequence too, along with that 3flip.

Witt's 3toes and 3sals were probably noticeably better than Trenary's.

I never thought Trenary was a fantastic spinner, but I didn't really think Witt was either.

Perhaps if you were to go by talent and corresponding ambition in program layout, all of Thomas, Manley, Ito, Kadavy and even Trenary were better than Witt, but talent and ambition never win competitions

miki88
03-29-2011, 11:50 PM
I prefer Kwan's skating to Kim's but I actually find Kim much more dominant. The only time I felt Kwan was really dominant was her first 15 months or so of dominance. Once early 97 came around she was regularly bested in major events by Lipinski for the next 2 seasons. Then she surprisingly lost Worlds to Maria after a mostly absent season, then she spent the next 3 seasons mostly losing to Slutskaya and even a couple times to Hughes. She then went into her twilight years, won 1 more Worlds, but also came 3rd and 4th at Worlds. Kwan was never really dominant when she had a prime Lipinski or prime Slutskaya as a main rival, whereas Kim has been dominant for periods even with Asada as a rival.

Kim I believe lost only 3 times the last 3 seasons. She was virtually unbeatable most of the time, often winning by huge point margins. The only 3 season span Kwan lost only 3 times was 97-98 to 99-2000 but she didnt even compete regularly like Kim did, and had to come from behind to win Nationals and Worlds both in 2000.

It's hard to compare because they competed under different judging systems, so the scores become somewhat irrelevant. Under the CoP, Hughes and Tara would have been penalized for their flutzes and their 3/3's be more scrutinized, so Kwan's dominance may have been more prominent.
In addition, I really question some of the scorings that happened when she competed against Irina in her prime. Kwan's superiority in the quality of her skating wasn't really awarded enough in my opinion.

Simone411
03-30-2011, 12:38 AM
I voted for Michelle. I wish there could have been more choices because I also like Kristi Yamaguchi and Caryn Kadavy. All three of them are talented, beautiful skaters.

Ozzisk8tr
03-30-2011, 11:39 AM
I've seen videos of roller skaters doing inverse camel spins, but they don't have to do it on edges like figure skaters nor do they change directly into sit positions to get a level 4. I could be wrong on the latter point, but c'mon, would it be fair to compare figure skater's elements to those of other sports? If this was the case, I could criticize the shit out of Sasha Cohen's spiral positions comparing it to those of gymnasts and prima ballerinas.

Um, 100% wrong. Change edge spins have also been around for decades on roller so your point is moot. There are also roller skaters who have gone from a back sit and stood straight into the inverted camel position. Let's see Yuna do that. I'm not saying roller is better than ice at all so don't bag me for talking about roller. I'm also not bagging Yuna, she is absolutely amazing and I have the utmost respect for her. As far as comparing sports, Ice and Roller figure skating are almost identical compared to gymnastics and figure skating. One glides the other rolls.

lowtherlore
03-30-2011, 01:34 PM
Um, 100% wrong. Change edge spins have also been around for decades on roller so your point is moot. There are also roller skaters who have gone from a back sit and stood straight into the inverted camel position. Let's see Yuna do that. I'm not saying roller is better than ice at all so don't bag me for talking about roller. I'm also not bagging Yuna, she is absolutely amazing and I have the utmost respect for her. As far as comparing sports, Ice and Roller figure skating are almost identical compared to gymnastics and figure skating. One glides the other rolls.

Um.. I wouldn’t say you’re 100% wrong, but I don’t agree here. Ice and roller skating are almost identical? First of all, friction is different, especially when one’s spinning, affording the roller skaters far greater command of certain positions. And you cannot compare roller skating edges to ice skating edges. I wouldn’t put Jordan up against Bolt as to who could run faster down the lane. It would be fairer to compare Yu-Na’s crafts with those of other (figure) skaters.

antmanb
03-30-2011, 01:43 PM
And when did I say transitioning from inverted camel into a sit position alone gurantee a level 4? :confused:

I didn't say anything about "guarantee" in my post and neither did you. In the post I quoted, you said:


I've seen videos of roller skaters doing inverse camel spins, but they don't have to do it on edges like figure skaters nor do they change directly into sit positions to get a level 4.

And I pointed out that changing directly from an inverse camel into a sit does not get you a level 4 (your words exactly), nor in fact do you even hit one bullet for an additional boost to your level. The reason I asked is because level 4 and sit spin are completely irrelevant in a discussion about the positioning on an inverse camel spin.

lowtherlore
03-30-2011, 01:51 PM
Levels aside (who cares really) I guess, in short, you don't like Yu-Na's inverted camel, am I right? :lol:

jatale
03-30-2011, 02:29 PM
The poll results look pretty reasonable so far but I'm a bit surprised that so few votes have gone to skaters other than Michelle and Yuna, I'm sure the other skaters must have their fan bases too.

RumbleFish
03-30-2011, 02:37 PM
Levels aside (who cares really) I guess, in short, you don't like Yu-Na's inverted camel, am I right? :lol:

:rofl::rofl::rofl: You hit the nail right on the head IMO.
Or perhaps the poster doesn't like Yuna's skating in general but doesn't have the balls to say it.

ks777
03-30-2011, 04:36 PM
:rofl::rofl::rofl: You hit the nail right on the head IMO.
Or perhaps the poster doesn't like Yuna's skating in general but doesn't have the balls to say it.

So if the poster doesn't agree with you guys(yuna bots or whatever you are), then she or he automatically doesn't like Yuna's skating?? :eek:

antmanb
03-30-2011, 05:10 PM
Levels aside (who cares really) I guess, in short, you don't like Yu-Na's inverted camel, am I right? :lol:

Who really cares indeed - that's more or less the point of my post. Neither levels nor sit spins have anything to do with inverted camels, so why did Rumblefish think they were relevant?

I think Yuna's position is brilliant and very few people in the world achieve a good position. Several of those people in the world achieve the good position on roller skates and one person achieves a good position on figure skates. Pointing out irrelevant facts does not lessen what those on roller skates achieve IMO.

My favourite inverted camel position of all time was Christina Czako's in her Adams Family LP. But that was BYK so yo've probably never heard of her ;)

attyfan
03-30-2011, 05:14 PM
...
Kim I believe lost only 3 times the last 3 seasons. She was virtually unbeatable most of the time, often winning by huge point margins. The only 3 season span Kwan lost only 3 times was 97-98 to 99-2000 but she didnt even compete regularly like Kim did, and had to come from behind to win Nationals and Worlds both in 2000.

Actually, Michelle did compete regularly in the '97/'98 and '99/'00 seasons, skipping the GP only in the '98/'99 season. Furthermore, I think the ability to "come from behind" is a reason why Michelle was such a strong competitor, if not dominant.

I'm not sure, though, if "dominanting" is the same as "always winning". Michelle, I think, is such a dominant skater because she was at the top -- a serious contender for gold, as well as a medalist -- in every event for almost a decade, even if she didn't win them all. She was the target at whom everyone else aimed their best ... and when she lost, it would be to some of the most technically advanced programs ever in the ladies event. Nothing (except a torn hip) could keep Michelle off the podium -- not illness (at Worlds '99), broken boots (Worlds '01), or streakers (Worlds, '04). Yu-Na may equal, or even surpass, this record, but she hasn't been competing long enough yet.

judgejudy27
03-30-2011, 06:22 PM
and when she lost, it would be to some of the most technically advanced programs ever in the ladies event.

I agree with alot of what you said but I dont neccessarily agree with this. When Kwan lost it was usually since she beat herself with jump problems and it often wasnt too someone who was spectacular or turning in historic performances.

96 Centennial on Ice- lost to Slutskaya and Butyrskaya. The 3 women landed 5, 4, and 4 triples each.

97 U.S Nationals, GP final, Worlds- lost all 3 times to Lipinski. OK Lipinski did do one of hardest programs as far as jump layout ever for ladies, but Kwan beat herself with errors each time, especialy Nationals and GP final.

98 Olympics- OK here you are definitely right.

99 Worlds- shockingly lost to Butyrskaya due to a sequence of errors.

2000 Grand Prix final- OK here you are definitely right.

2000-2001 season losses to Slutskaya- Honestly I dont remember Slutskaya skating spectacularly in any of her wins over Michelle. She didnt skate a clean long program in any of them, and she never landed a clean triple-triple or more than 1 triple in any of them. Michelle landed 1 less triple each time I believe though, and the judges seemed mostly focused on that.

2001-2002 season losses to Slutksaya (6 in a row I believe) - similar story to 2000-2001 although at the GP final Kwan was definitely robbed, and Irina did land one triple-triple at Goodwill Games). At 2002 Worlds Irina won with a safe but clean 6 triple effort after Kwan botched her short program, and at the Olympics she beat Kwan with a rather subpar effort after Kwan fell.

2004 and 2005 Worlds- needless to say alot of problems for Kwan at both events which were the result of her dissapointing placing, as both times she finished directly behind a not so great performance which should have been easily beatable (Cohen in 2004 and Kostner in 2005).

VIETgrlTerifa
03-30-2011, 06:46 PM
2004 and 2005 Worlds- needless to say alot of problems for Kwan at both events which were the result of her dissapointing placing, as both times she finished directly behind a not so great performance which should have been easily beatable (Cohen in 2004 and Kostner in 2005).

You're right about the placing. Even though Kwan was past her prime, her losses weren't slam-dunks. In actuality, Kwan's results are great for any other skaters (and normal for others), but due to Kwan's dominance at the podium for 10 years, they were seen as failures among the skating fandom.

In 2004, it was horrible QR and time deduction in the SP that caused to be in such a deficit going into the LP. I know it was the last time 6.0 was being used in a championship so the judges were being a bit lenient with the scoring, but it goes to show that despite all of that Kwan still managed to place second in the LP and was one ordinal away from winning the LP with only 5 triples. Of course based on technical merit alone, Kwan shouldn't have been close to Arakawa (that said, although I much prefer Arakawa's 2004 Turandot to her 2006 one, I preferred Kwan's program and skating overall despite it being far from her personal best, so I can see the argument for presentation).

In 2005, it was the QR and Kwan's inexperience with COP and her rising hip problem that did her in. She still managed to place 3rd in the SP and LP though. Despite what people thought about the COP (at least that particular COP) working against Kwan's strengths, she still managed to be competitive overall.

judgejudy27
03-30-2011, 07:49 PM
I thought the judging of Worlds 2004 was pretty bad in some ways. Arakawa I thought was held up bigtime in the short but held down bigtime in the long despie that she won it. Her short program was mediocre and should have been 4th or lower. No way should she have been placed over Ando or Kwan. Her long was stupendous though and should have been showered with 6.0s given how the scoring at that years Worlds was, and had straight 1st place ordinals. Kwan's long program was quite good too, but even Cohen being placed over Shizuka by 3 of the 9 counting judges with that lame performance was awful. Kostner's long program was a train wreck and got a 5.9 for technical merit and placed 5th ahead of the European Champion.

The thing about the 2005 Worlds more than her 4th place showing though was that she was never competitive with Slutskaya or Cohen at all it seemed, as those two seemed to open up a chasm on all the others this year. That was what surprised people the most. Of course those two had the most experience under COP and had tailor made their programs and skating for it.