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neptune
03-13-2011, 01:57 AM
at japanese nationals, unstable mao was about 20 points below consistent miki, right?

"Unstable Mao"? Ah, so that's why Mao was throwing udon at Miki after the medals ceremony! ;)


So do I, but among other things, her injury cuts that out of the picture.

Rachael Flatt is injured?

sydneyphoenix
03-13-2011, 02:13 AM
What a shame World ranking No. 2 (Suzuki), No. 7 (Rochette) and No. 10 (Lepisto) aren't participating...mind you, the Worlds may not go on, and some people are making strong cases that it SHOULDN'T. :(

RunnersHigh
03-13-2011, 02:15 AM
Is it "rude" to doubt sudden "injuries" on very convenient timings? Not as rude as someone waving the flag of moralist crusades. Such things actually happen when the pressure is extremely high and a loss could be very costly. In the case of 2008 4CC, Kim had to face the arch-rival with the strongest ever programs before the home crowd. At least, she doesn't need to be "injured" this time.

She won't be at worlds, anyway. I'll admire her if she has that guts. ;)


I'm just presenting a plausible case of Kim's sudden "withdrawal". I see Kim to be a strategic (intelligent + opportunistic) person. She has little to gain and much to lose. There could be new concerns. The judges might side with Japanese skaters by sympathetic reasons.

When Kim announced to compete at worlds after a few days after TEB, she should have thought she could win even with 3-4 errors. The whole picture has changed after that and the pressure is building enormously high.

So, do you think the injury was just excuse to withdraw? I know it's useless to inform you below but it must be useful to some other FSUers.

When was the injury begun?
She felt a pain around her hip at the end of the January, about 2 weeks before the competition (The competition was from February 11 to February 17, 2008.)

What did team Yu-Na do on her symptom?
Because she desperately wanted to perform her programs in front of her home crowds, they combined training and treatment together. But it was not improved at all that they decided to give up the competition but tried to focus on WC 2008 planned 10 weeks later. They introduced this situation to the public on February 6.

Team Yu-Na tried to find the reason of injury and visited some hospitals and oriental medical clinics in Canada. But they couldn't find the exact reason and how to treat. They finally decided go back to Korea because they're not accustomed with hospitals and medical system in Canada.

What happened in Korea?
She came back to Korea February 11, 2008.
Nowhere but to a hospital from airport and she spent all the day to check up her whole body and examine everything.

She was diagnosed with "Sacroiliac joints" injury and told "3 months" to obtain permanent relief.

After the intensive care for a while, gradually the pain seeped away. So she skated little by little but she stopped training on and off the ice for about a month even skating itself was hard thing to do.

At Lotte ice rink (http://sportsworldi.segye.com/content/image/2010/05/23/20100523001235_0.jpg), well known amusement skating facility, she started training with Brian Orser. But as you may know it's not the place for any medal contender to prepare his/her upcoming World Championship.

IS THIS SO CALLED "sudden "injuries" on very convenient timings?".
Stop training for a month during the season is a piece of cake?

Be your own judge.

NMURA
03-13-2011, 03:23 AM
Be your own judge.

Of course, they needed to persuade the ISU and the Korean federation in "plausible" manners. I can imagine that Kim's situation before 2008 4CC was extremely nerve-racking. There are enough reasons for her to avoid confronting her arch-rival with the strongest ever programs in front of the home crowd. We know that she's very fragile under the home pressure from the 2008 GPF case. The loss would definitely hurt their national pride (which is very important in South Korea rooted with strong anti-Japanese nationalism) and her chance at worlds. It's clearly a little to gain, much to lose situation. Kim is not an ordinary citizen. If someone like her got suddenly "injured" at THAT very convenient timing, I don't think it's "rude" to be doubtful.

RunnersHigh
03-13-2011, 04:18 AM
Of course, they needed to persuade the ISU and the Korean federation in "plausible" manners.
:blah:


I can imagine that Kim's situation before 2008 4CC was extremely nerve-racking.
You can imagine everything.


There are enough reasons for her to avoid confronting her arch-rival with the strongest ever programs in front of the home crowd.
I'm not sure who and what programs you're talking about but didn't she beat her arch-rival with the strongest ever programs 2007 GPF at Torino just before the injury?


We know that she's very fragile under the home pressure from the 2008 GPF case.
2008 GPF was 11 months later and it's just a consequence known.
Plus, she won Korean Championships, held in Korea, 5 times in a row under the pressure.


The loss would definitely hurt their national pride (which is very important in South Korea rooted with strong anti-Japanese nationalism) and her chance at worlds.
Is that your view point on this sport?

Strong anti-Japanese nationalism? Some clearly have like some Japanese have strong anti-Korean nationalism.


It's clearly a little to gain, much to lose situation.
Then why did she participate 2010 Worlds and planed to do 2011 Worlds?


Kim is not an ordinary citizen. If someone like her got suddenly "injured" at THAT very convenient timing, I don't think it's "rude" to be doubtful.
As I wrote above it was not a sudden injury. It was felt and intensified.

For the convenient timing, she injured on foreign soil, visited hospitals instead of skating club, was diagnosed with "Sacroiliac joints" injury, got an intensive care, stopped training for a month...

Then why didn't she do that 2010? Even Speedy warned and asked her to participate?

sydneyphoenix
03-13-2011, 06:23 AM
Okay, I usually stay away from "controversial", politically charged debates, but some of your assertions are distasteful in my opinion, Mr/Ms NMURA.

From what I've skimmed over, one of your main point is that with the Worlds now in doubtful schedule, Yu-Na Kim has a convenient "excuse" not to participate. First of all, if anyone that I know has a plan to go to Japan in near future, I will advise them to reconsider in the strongest possible terms. Earthquake and aftershocks are bad enough, especially for someone who's not used to having them frequently, but this nuclear meltdown, with detection of caesium, takes the problem several notches up, with possible complications that we can only speculate over. Also, if you are to assert that Ms. Kim has a convenient excuse to withdraw, one can make a similarly valid point for any of her competitor-it may take a great deal to get over embarrassment of losing to someone who's taken a whole year off. So for all we know, it could be Ms. Kim's competitors who are breathing sighs of relief (if you are going to take it that far).

To this 2008 4CC debate-I didn't follow details back then, but from what I found out later, Ms. Kim's injuries were significant and that she carried her injuries to the Worlds in Sweden. You are welcome to your belief, but if you truly believe that she did fake it or wormed out of tight corners without due cause, I wonder why you didn't take it up with ISU and have Ms. Kim and/or KSU disciplined.

You raised the point about the prospect of Koreans taking Ms. Kim's defeat badly, due to "anti-Japanese nationalism". As I understand it, dislike between Korea and Japan is mutual; I suggest you stop pointing fingers as continuing to do so may open the hell-gate with partisan rambles. Just so you know, in this context, I can see Japanese people taking their athletes losing to Ms. Kim just as badly as Koreans would take Ms. Kim losing to Miki Ando, Mao Asada or Kanako Murakami, especially in context of Ms. Kim's prolonged break from the competition this season.

Finally, what do you mean by anything short of "absolute win" for Ms. Kim will hurt her career? If I may indulge in speculation, I suspect you mean winning with complete dominance like in 2009 Worlds or XXI Olympics Winter Games. If that's what you're getting at, who are you to say that Ms. Kim have to win by gazillion points to enhance her career (which will be more difficult due to rule changes) while others will have to "simply" win, even if by margin of 0.01 point? Please enlighten me if you meant something else by your statement.

All in all, no need to be so nasty against a particular athlete. If you don't like Ms. Kim (or any other athlete), you can criticise her logically, with evidence to back up your arguments, but I don't see much of that from you. I suggest you take a chill-pill and calm yourself a bit.

With best regards.

l'etoile
03-13-2011, 06:46 AM
thanks to Runnershigh and sydneypheonix!!

it's like talking to the wall forgodsakes..:violin:

judgejudy27
03-13-2011, 06:50 AM
What a shame World ranking No. 2 (Suzuki), No. 7 (Rochette) and No. 10 (Lepisto) aren't participating...mind you, the Worlds may not go on, and some people are making strong cases that it SHOULDN'T. :(

Those rankings are hilarious. Suzuki World #2, ROTFL!! Or Rochette at only #7 while Suzuki is at #2.

sydneyphoenix
03-13-2011, 07:02 AM
Those rankings are hilarious. Suzuki World #2, ROTFL!! Or Rochette at only #7 while Suzuki is at #2.

Well, Ms. Rochette is taking this season off while Ms. Suzuki had a long season including a few Senior B events...

I always thought ISU should give byes to the Worlds to recent Olympic, Worlds (and maybe GPF) medalists and top 3 or so in ranking tables (though most of these lists will probably cross-match).

RunnersHigh
03-13-2011, 07:04 AM
Those rankings are hilarious. Suzuki World #2, ROTFL!! Or Rochette at only #7 while Suzuki is at #2.

I think the rank is from the World Standings of ISU (http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsladies.htm).

Anyway, when is the time for me to do some packing or not for the WC. :confused:

giselle23
03-14-2011, 08:34 PM
Why would Yu Na withdraw? While no skater can ever claim an absolute lock on a gold medal, Yu Na comes pretty close.

Jammers
03-14-2011, 09:05 PM
How the hell is Suzuki #2 in the world rankings?

BaileyCatts
03-15-2011, 06:21 AM
She skated a packed schedule and several Senior B events, so got major points that way.

pinky166
03-15-2011, 05:10 PM
How the hell is Suzuki #2 in the world rankings?

I'm confused by that too. Miki is below Akiko and Miki's won pretty much everything this season...

Sylvia
03-15-2011, 05:20 PM
Well here's the ISU rankings for THIS season only -- top 4 are Kostner, Korpi, Ando, Czisny: http://www.isuresults.com/ws/wr/wrladies.htm