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Carmen Ovsiannikov
05-02-2011, 01:11 AM
....IMO skating one competition doesn't help nowadays with the ability to polish a program in front of judges and audiences. If V&M had been able to compete at 4CC they would have had a better chance. Their FD was incredible but I'm used to seeing them skate perfectly and this wasn't quite perfect. I just credit that with lack of competing.

......

Very true. And you are looking at it from the point of view that it was the lack of polish caused by only competing the FD once all year that kept V&M from repeating as champs.

I was referring to those who feel that Tessa and Scott are boring so should be second just for being boring. It seems some of those same people felt that even if V&M had been clean and skated better they still should have lost. Ie D&W should get the nod for competing all season while V&M skated only once. I say this because even before the competition started and pre FD it kept coming up that even with similar performances D&W had skated all year.


....Another thought though .. is it possible nowadays for world champions to repeat their titles as they did in the old days with the new judging? A lot of people said back in the days of T&D that they didn't always deserve the 10's it was just a given that the judges were going to give them that. I was actually never a huge fan of theirs.

I know some people want change and feel it's good for the sport; it proves (supposedly) that there is more fairness in the judging. No politicking. I have no problem with change as long as it's not just for the sake of change.

I understand the excitement about seeing titles change hands under tight contests but I admit that I also miss the days when we had teams that were THAT good that they were exciting to watch. I liked being amazed to see how good certain teams were compared to the rest of the field and it could be just as exciting for me to see how those teams could compete even against themselves to maintain that level of skating. I realize that for the dancers themselves, especially those who felt they were as good as the champs it must have been frustrating.

I see that type of potential in V&M (although I think I&K should play a factor as we move closer to Sochi) so I hope the judges aren't just going to pick a different team every year just to appease the masses who don't want the same teams on top for the next four years.

It's possible that in most cases (I do agree 100% with the Bolero and Paso Doble OSP 10's) that judges were trying to please the viewing audience. I do think T&D deserved all four of their World titles but they could still have been placed first with a mixture of 5.8's and 5.9's. But even with CoP we are still seeing the judges trying to court/please the audience. The scores for all four Olympic champions last year IMHO were beyond ridiculous. All four could easily have been marked more realistically while still maintaining first place. I love V&M as much as anyone but while I continue to feel they deserved to win in Vancouver, I honestly don't believe they were 30 points better than the other top teams.

DenStavs were the last team to repeat as champions under the CoP system and it was well deserved. It looked as if DelShoes might have repeated in 2009 but who knows. I do think it's possible but these days I feel that the teams have been closer, there are more mistakes and once more I feel as if people prefer to see new champions. I recall the complaints (some valid) about one team holding onto the world title for an entire quadrennial. While some of those teams should not have won everytime, those teams were excellent at what they did and most often were the best or near the best. I think V&M will/should repeat at least once; unless they retire before Sochi.

karen
05-02-2011, 01:46 AM
In fairness to Platov, P&B did have a fall in their FD.

While I am disappointed that V&M didn't win although I new they had about a 50/50 shot, I'm:fragile:over P&B. They must be crushed. I knew they had no chance for anything more than bronze but figured they had to be a lock for at least that. After winning their first European title they had to be confident going into Worlds. IMO their final placement was the biggest surprise of the competition for me.

In fairness to Platov it was actually Zhulin coaching P&B. ;) I totally agree, though. They were a virtual lock for a medal and... there it goes. So sad! I hope they have another chance next year! And then he fell again in the gala :( Similar to you, I almost wanted their reputation to be enough for a medal, even with the fall. :o

Carmen Ovsiannikov
05-02-2011, 02:04 AM
Oops! My bad. :shuffle: For the life of me I don't know why I keep thinking Platov when I actually made a comment about worrying about P&B's future because Zhulin is seems to stress the artistic over difficulty (minus the required footwork). :lol: :slinkaway Thanks Karen.

For me with P&B it wasn't just reputation as long as they skated clean it's the fact that IMO as in the "olden" days sometimes a fall might not hurt as much if the teams behind the team with the mistake aren't in the same league quite yet.

I've only watched V&M on youtube but from what I saw in the SD, the Shibs are elegant and have great lines (as does P&B) but P&B are far more sophisticated and much faster. I remember back during their one season in seniors when people agreed with SilPek's placements because they weren't as fast as the other teams and lacked maturity. I feel the same about Maya and Alex. I don't think they should have been close enough to P&B to have overtaken them in the FD. The point spread should have been enough to maybe have them win the FD but not the bronze. I wonder if the judges are still thinking of what happened in 2009 and are trying to correct it somehow.

In my view V&M are to D&W what P&B should be to S&S. S&S at the moment are like I&K. Two teams that have potential (although I do think I&K can go a bit farther) but aren't there yet. P&B in general are a level above S&S in practically every area.

It seems that every few years the qualities that the judges find most important change and flip flop. It appears that some teams always end up just one or two years behind the curve. In the wrong place at the wrong time or maybe in the right place but the wrong year. It wasn't that long ago that K&N won the bronze when they were not up to the standard of the other teams, depended on their voidyness and Jana's bendyness, and had a crap performance of their FD. Ironically it was that year I felt that P&B should have won the bronze with their excellent Flamenco and Organ Donor dances.

It looks like P&B might be the new "DelShoes" always the bridesmaid....I hope not.

karen
05-02-2011, 02:19 AM
Thanks for the ice dance history lesson :) As a relatively new (since 2008) ice dance fan, I really don't know much! I see what you mean now about P/B winning bronze despite a fall.

Proustable
05-02-2011, 02:48 AM
I'm going to throw in what is sure to be a very unpopular opinion here. I will preface it by saying that V&M are by far my favourite team (being there live to see them win their Olympic title was one of the most exciting moments of my life!) and I have been a huge fan since they were tiny little pre-novice skaters... but I am actually glad they only competed once this season, because their FD did absolutely nothing for me. I had to watch it in three parts because I kept getting bored and distracted, and then I had to force myself to watch it again in a single sitting. I would be very satisfied if this dance was never seen again.

Then again, I have always hated Latin dances (I get nightmares of Grishuk & Platov's monstrous FD from '95), and I know I am in the minority in that I would be perfectly happy seeing Tessa and Scott do romantic programs in the Mahler/Umbrellas vein for the rest of their career. It's easily what they do best, and I think there are enough different ways to do "romantic" (I mean, I think those who argue that Umbrellas and Mahler were too much alike are crazy) to keep it interesting.

I'm not against seeing them "stretch" to show their versatility, but the idea that one must break from their strengths just to prove a point doesn't really sit well with me. Also, if they are going to try different styles consistently, they need to go somewhere beyond Shpilband and Zueva to do it - there are only a few types of programs Igor and Marina do well, and everything else just becomes a cookie-cutter exercise in recycled ideas.

1. I'm glad to hear some defence of their romantic programs. I always get confused when people complain about how boring they are - they're subtle, graceful and gorgeous.

2. That said, I also don't think they're ever going to ditch the romance (much to the consternation of some, I'm sure). Partially because it's what they're good at, but also because both are reasonably saavy media entities (Scott in particular) and they know that's what sells them

3. That said, I loved their FD and have seen it over a dozen times already. I enjoy Latin dances and thought it was as hot as ice dance can get. That straight line lift is to die for, and the curve? My goodness. The Italian commentators actually giggled it was that hot.

zilam98
05-02-2011, 03:21 AM
Tessa didn't gain weight - she muscled up especially upper body. I suspect she needs it for those incredible lifts - wow!



i dont think tessa muscled up--she looks more like she's in her off-season physique with the less training they had. both she and meryl looked really slim last season, but look at the differences in their physiques this time. it's almost how gordeeva looked like in 89 worlds with the less training g/g had post injury. well granted, gordeeva also hit puberty then. i just wish tessa would keep this weight onward--she looks much better in that physique, though i doubt marina/igor would allow that. team zueva/shpilband tend to keep their ladies really slender to a point of looking frail, like how katia was when training with zueva.

BellaSTRARSSA!
05-02-2011, 05:06 AM
I'm not against seeing them "stretch" to show their versatility, but the idea that one must break from their strengths just to prove a point doesn't really sit well with me. Also, if they are going to try different styles consistently, they need to go somewhere beyond Shpilband and Zueva to do it - there are only a few types of programs Igor and Marina do well, and everything else just becomes a cookie-cutter exercise in recycled ideas.

I agree with this for the most part. I've never found V/M boring. They remind me of Klimova & Ponomarenko (and not in an overly gushing sort of way), because of their technical excellence and they're lovely romantic signature style. K&P faced the same "they're boring" criticism vs. The Duchesnays who mostly benefited from Christopher Dean's choreograophy more than their actual merits as ice dancers. But really K&P did so many different styles during their career, skating to the Beatles, Mack The Knife, My Fair Lady, Lawerence Of Arabia, and Bach.

I think S&Z (mainly Zoueva, I think) managed V&M's programs brilliantly the last quad, showing off their ability for detail, difficulty, and relating to one another. I don't mind them trying new styles as I love this FD, but I agree that they shouldn't feel compelled to abandon what they do best.

And while of course I'm sad they didn't repeat as WC, it's still amazing to come in and debut a FD at Worlds and as well as an only twice danced SD (which they won both times) and win the silver. I hope what they come away with was how positively the audience reacted to their FD and it's clear the judges liked it too, they just needed more competitive practice to polish and rework it. I remember Tessa saying something last season about how nice it was to have all the competitive experience throughout the season to polish their programs. That's how they got to those amazing performances at the Olympics.

They're on a nice podium streak and hopefully this fuels the fire to come back next year and pick up that GPF title they're missing plus the World title again.

Era
05-02-2011, 07:30 AM
Wow, I loved Tessa & Scott's FD! I've already watched so many times I've lost count. I can understand why they didn't get the gold as the routine wasn't as polished as it could be, but I still find them magic. I so want to see that program honed a bit more.

They have that IT factor that just makes me forget that they are on blades. There is so much that can be portrayed with the movement of a wrist/hand or head. I agree with BellaSTRARSSA! that they have that beautiful flow and sell the romance like Klimova & Ponomarenko.

I do like D & W, but I often find my mind wanders while watching them. They are technically excellent and fast but I often find their routines too busy (too rushing here and there) or that they lack the emotional connection to fully sell their romantic pieces.

Shayii
05-02-2011, 08:10 AM
I can't stop watching their free dance it's actually scaring me that I love it so much!!! It's amazing!! And I watch all the different versions posted on youtube just to hear how the commentators react to the performance once it's over and it seems pretty obvious that they too were blown away. I wish I can understand the language the different commentators are speaking; I need translations, lol!

pani
05-02-2011, 11:50 AM
I can't stop watching their free dance it's actually scaring me that I love it so much!!! It's amazing!! And I watch all the different versions posted on youtube just to hear how the commentators react to the performance once it's over and it seems pretty obvious that they too were blown away. I wish I can understand the language the different commentators are speaking; I need translations, lol!

O, when i will have time, i could translate to you, what commentators on russian TV said.
Now i could only say, that during SD Novitsky and Zhurankov all time talk T-S skating in there own leage and how good they are.
After FD Slytskay and russian co-commentator was dissapointed they did take gold after FD. Look, like they love this FD.
And i am really happy, because they had big standing ovation after FD and this was really emotion moment for public, because they even gave all toys to them and still nothing for Meryl and Charlie :lol: I think people didnt expect something like this :D And in Russia only russian skaters had such a big support. Even during awards ceremony, people huge T-S the most.
It was funny, how Scott ask Tessa- coukd he give flowers to there fan. I saw that women after competition and she said to her little girl - this flowers Scott Moir give to you :)
From the begining i was thinking, that more drama FD wil have more chances for the gold. Some popel said this to me in Megasport- coaches gave to T-S FD, wixh couldnt beat tango from Meryl-Charlie. And how they saw this speciall things in there skating in gala number.
As for results - i only disagree with D-W marks in SD, because they wasnt skate there best, twizzles was not good and at pattern dance they didnt show such close positions and synchro, like T-S did. I even like Kethlyn and Andrew SD much better. And I-K in SD was superd (but very bad in FD - dont know why). And i disagree with low component score in FD for T-S. I think even if they had some mistakes, they show such a high level of interpretation, wich really bring then big support in professional skating in next season.
I waas so sad for P-S - this was third sad moment at this WCh/ First was Takahashi problems with the blade, secoan - Kim tears on podium and third - P-B.... This mady was the moment of there lifes....
And i miss Kerrs at this WCh so much. They could take medal in this situation i think. And i really dissapoited, because F-S didnt show there FD in Moscow.

clarie
05-02-2011, 01:03 PM
O, when i will have time, i could translate to you, what commentators on russian TV said.
Now i could only say, that during SD Novitsky and Zhurankov all time talk T-S skating in there own leage and how good they are.
After FD Slytskay and russian co-commentator was dissapointed they did take gold after FD. Look, like they love this FD.
And i am really happy, because they had big standing ovation after FD and this was really emotion moment for public, because they even gave all toys to them and still nothing for Meryl and Charlie :lol: I think people didnt expect something like this :D And in Russia only russian skaters had such a big support. Even during awards ceremony, people huge T-S the most.
It was funny, how Scott ask Tessa- coukd he give flowers to there fan. I saw that women after competition and she said to her little girl - this flowers Scott Moir give to you :)
From the begining i was thinking, that more drama FD wil have more chances for the gold. Some popel said this to me in Megasport- coaches gave to T-S FD, wixh couldnt beat tango from Meryl-Charlie. And how they saw this speciall things in there skating in gala number.
As for results - i only disagree with D-W marks in SD, because they wasnt skate there best, twizzles was not good and at pattern dance they didnt show such close positions and synchro, like T-S did. I even like Kethlyn and Andrew SD much better. And I-K in SD was superd (but very bad in FD - dont know why). And i disagree with low component score in FD for T-S. I think even if they had some mistakes, they show such a high level of interpretation, wich really bring then big support in professional skating in next season.
I waas so sad for P-S - this was third sad moment at this WCh/ First was Takahashi problems with the blade, secoan - Kim tears on podium and third - P-B.... This mady was the moment of there lifes....
And i miss Kerrs at this WCh so much. They could take medal in this situation i think. And i really dissapoited, because F-S didnt show there FD in Moscow.

Well, I'm glad you were there Pani and can post all these little tidbits of info. I hope to see them again live again, as the last time was at Skate Canada 2009-10 season, and they were awsome but still not at their best. (They skated last, and rink was slush.) I remember thinking "How can anyone skate on that?)................Great memories for you Pani......last year and this year.

Sahararainfall
05-02-2011, 03:48 PM
. .. in the Olympic year V&M had to compete throughout the season to elevate their OD to get it ready for Olympic gold. It started off so-so and they lost to D&W a couple of times but it built after that. ....

As much as I really wanted V&M to win and create history and as much as I love that FD, I am with the general opinion that D&W deserve the gold this year because they skated their FD perfectly for the night and it was more polished compared to the slight "rawness" of V&Ms FD due to lack of "match play" to put it in tennis terms. Watching the final two dance-off is like watching the Farrucas OD TEB or GPF final 2009 going up against D&W Olympic-caliber Bollywood. It was pretty dynamic for a program debut, great first part although patchy midportion (BUT what a hot curve lift) and tired finished but nowhere near the level of Farrucas Worlds 2010 to beat the level D&W already achieved with their FD.

Speaking of last year's programs, I think it's been mentioned before that this year these two teams sort of switched comfort zones in their FD, with DW going for the draw-the-crowd-in style (like Mahler) and VM going for the more upbeat and get-the-crowd-involved style ala DWs Bollywood OD. I think it is rather telling that while DW had to work the whole season to get their connection right for this kind of style, VM practically brought the house down on their FD debut and they are not even on home ice. I think this FD is one more arsenal against those who think they are one dimensional performance-wise. They have connected to a live audience of not their own country and dancing a style that is supposed to be not their comfort zone.


Tessa said that for the first time in a long time she feels like an athlete because she can train at the gym. She look very fit to me!:)


She probably gained some weight not being able to train so much, and there probably wasn't enough time to take it off. She looked very frail at Skate Canada after her surgery (signing books) but probably gained some overtime while she was recovering. I think she still looked buff.

Yep, she looks really fit. She does not seem as ballerina-slim like last year (which fits Mahler ) but she does look really buff. Or maybe it's just the costume, I don't know. At 4CC, she seemed to look the same as last year. If she did gain some weight either due to lack of training during recovery after surgery or because she is maturing finally to a more full-bodied figure of a woman (which fits samba, I mean you need hips and butt to shake hips and butt. :D), I think that weight is pure muscle now. Considering TV adds 10 pounds, she must be really muscularly sleek in person. I mean did you see her biceps? I think she could take on both Meryl and Maia on arm wrestling at the same time and still win!! hehe..Wish I have a body like hers, but then I have to give up a lot of things in the fridge and a lot of computer time and tv time, so never mind...


Thanks for the ice dance history lesson :) As a relatively new (since 2008) ice dance fan, I really don't know much! I see what you mean now about P/B winning bronze despite a fall.

I second the motion. To Carmen Ovsiannikov and to all others, thanks for taking the time to write these very informative and insightful post, lots of different insights and opinions for me to digest and learn from and a newbie like me really appreciate these.


Yep. That lift was awesome. The way Tessa's body slinks around Scott, the way she drinks him in... very steamy.

Farewell to The Goose! Long live The Temptation lift! After seeing that lift, I must shamefully admit that in the short time I have followed VM so far, this is the first time my mind actually went down the gutter regarding these two, I mean steep, dive bombing down the gutter. :eek: That was really hot, even the little things like the way she placed her hand on his chest, any more sensual than that would be soft porn. If they decided to incorporate some elements of this FD to next year's SD, I want that Temptation's Lift back! or The Temptation Lift. or the Lift of Temptation...See, my mind is still in the gutter. Better stop, I might get banned.:slinkaway


I'm going to throw in what is sure to be a very unpopular opinion here. I will preface it by saying that V&M are by far my favourite team (being there live to see them win their Olympic title was one of the most exciting moments of my life!) and I have been a huge fan since they were tiny little pre-novice skaters... but I am actually glad they only competed once this season, because their FD did absolutely nothing for me. I had to watch it in three parts because I kept getting bored and distracted, and then I had to force myself to watch it again in a single sitting. I would be very satisfied if this dance was never seen again.

Then again, I have always hated Latin dances (I get nightmares of Grishuk & Platov's monstrous FD from '95), and I know I am in the minority in that I would be perfectly happy seeing Tessa and Scott do romantic programs in the Mahler/Umbrellas vein for the rest of their career. It's easily what they do best, and I think there are enough different ways to do "romantic" (I mean, I think those who argue that Umbrellas and Mahler were too much alike are crazy) to keep it interesting.

I'm not against seeing them "stretch" to show their versatility, but the idea that one must break from their strengths just to prove a point doesn't really sit well with me. Also, if they are going to try different styles consistently, they need to go somewhere beyond Shpilband and Zueva to do it - there are only a few types of programs Igor and Marina do well, and everything else just becomes a cookie-cutter exercise in recycled ideas.

Agree with the bolded parts, but I love this FD. I love Latin dances, samba in particular and I'm really glad they tried this. I think they really are the only one who have the skating and dancing skills and connection to translate samba into ice. It can't be said enough, but I really wish they had the full season of tournaments to perfect this, but considering all the things they had to go through to give us this FD. I think they did marvelously well.

Sahararainfall
05-02-2011, 04:00 PM
i dont think tessa muscled up--she looks more like she's in her off-season physique with the less training they had. both she and meryl looked really slim last season, but look at the differences in their physiques this time. it's almost how gordeeva looked like in 89 worlds with the less training g/g had post injury. well granted, gordeeva also hit puberty then. i just wish tessa would keep this weight onward--she looks much better in that physique, though i doubt marina/igor would allow that. team zueva/shpilband tend to keep their ladies really slender to a point of looking frail, like how katia was when training with zueva.

Now that you've mentioned it, Tessa in this gold dress reminds me of her off-season physique when she was wearing another gold dress in CSOI. She looked gorgeous there too. I don't know what "fighting weight" she needs to have not to hinder their lifts and I have read about Zueva/Shpilband (sp?) rumored weight issues with ladies, but I do agree, this physique really looks good on her.

I feel kind of guilty, I mean, this kind of speculations sort of what gives young dancers eating disorders.

pani
05-02-2011, 04:02 PM
The funny thing is i didnt re-watched this FD yet on TV :D
But look, like T-S emotions people at arena really love ;)
And they look good after FD - not like they couldnt even move, like D-W.
Dont know- what will be next for D-W, if from last season they have not so much energy for skating in there speed style and in this season, when they didnt shoe there all speed, they couldnt move after FD?
Look, like italian commentators said they (V-M) didnt expect standing ovation for them in Russia :D

Sahararainfall
05-02-2011, 04:15 PM
The funny thing is i didnt re-watched this FD yet on TV :D
But look, like T-S emotions people at arena really love ;) ......Look, like italian commentators said they (V-M) didnt expect standing ovation for them in Russia :D

Watch it again now pani. It's good to look at things in retrospect without the emotion and excitement of the moment, although i envy you a lot, to be able to see them skate live in back to back world championships. That is just so cool. Anyway, they may not have won the gold, but judging from the crowd reaction, they won the hearts of a lot of non-Canadian fans. At least that is something...Actually that is a big thing.