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Ania
02-23-2011, 04:42 PM
ITA.

And PD, I do get it, I just strongly disagree with you.

Another ITA. I find it quite appalling that anyone would defend this "wonderful teacher". He got what he deserved, and hopefully no girls will suffer because he is on the sex offender list (where he totally belongs).

I was an 11th grader when a teacher developed a crush on me, and let me tell you that this was no fun at all (although in PDilemma's definition "nothing happened", thank god).
I wish I had the guts to press charges (this was in a different country, but still).:(

PDilemma, what do you think would have been appropriate punishment for him?

BigB08822
02-23-2011, 04:49 PM
It makes me ill that people go online to trap these people for some television show. I completely understand WHY they do it but two wrongs do not make a right, IMO.

PDilemma
02-23-2011, 06:41 PM
Another ITA. I find it quite appalling that anyone would defend this "wonderful teacher". He got what he deserved, and hopefully no girls will suffer because he is on the sex offender list (where he totally belongs).

I was an 11th grader when a teacher developed a crush on me, and let me tell you that this was no fun at all (although in PDilemma's definition "nothing happened", thank god).
I wish I had the guts to press charges (this was in a different country, but still).:(

PDilemma, what do you think would have been appropriate punishment for him?

I really don't know why I am being burned at the proverbial stake. When did I say what he did was okay? What I said is that as his co-workers we felt and still feel some compassion for everyone who was involved in this mess. But, obviously, in your worlds, compassion is very wrong.

What did he deserve? This (the terms of his plea originally):

1. To never be allowed to set foot in the school or at a school event again.
2. To lose his teaching license permanently (he did). And there needs to be a national database to ensure that no teacher who has lost a license in one state can ever get one in another state or be employed by a school in any capacity. Currently, there is not one. That is a serious problem that no one wants to deal with.
3. Strict and highly structured long term probation including court supervised counseling. (When he was sent to prison, his counseling ceased, and as I understand it, he never went back after his sentence--so we have an offender who was not compelled to make any attempt to address the emotional/mental issues that may have contributed to the crime)
4. A prison sentence if there was any violation of probation or attempt to be on school premises or at school events or contact the victim or her family.
5. If the sex offender list were utilized, a clear delineation for him and all offenders of what their offense was. That list scares people more than it sometimes should.

Instead... he served ten months in jail, stopped all therapy, and turned up at the school's district wrestling meet a year later and there was no reason for the host school (a different school) to make him leave (they were asked to and refused based on their own polices and no legal reason compelling them to not allow someone as a spectator), and attempted to contact the victim's father.

The last I knew, he had moved to another state and had told someone he was considering going back to school to change professions and hoping to be hired as a high school football or wrestling coach somewhere eventually.

And I didn't say he was a wonderful teacher. Read carefully. I said that he was the kind of 24/7 teacher that parents and principals think are wonderful when they actually have their priorities, boundaries and lives screwed up. A few colleagues had expressed to him before this incident that he needed his own life separate from school. But he thought he was being the best kind of teacher by not having one. We have to rethink how we view that. Teachers with no personal connections outside of school and no healthy support system can develop unhealthy relationships with students. This is especially true on the high school level where teachers can be closer in age to their students. And it often crosses lines that are not sexual or criminal but still very inappropriate and very harmful to kids.

But in the midst of burning me at the internet stake, no one thought about that point.

screech
02-23-2011, 07:23 PM
I have a friend who is a high school teacher, just about to start teaching at a new school in a new city, and despite advice to the contrary goes out to bars and picks up women. Well at the bar one day he picked up a girl and had sex with her. He later found out she had lied about her age (she was 16 or 17) and ended up being a student at his school. Not in his classes, but at his school.

Despite the fact that if she one day decides to she could potentially ruin his life just by truthfully saying she'd had sex with him, he still continues to meet girls at a bar. I don't get high school teachers who do that - the chances of running into your students, when the legal drinking age is 18, is insanely high.

I also have a friend who was hit on by a teacher while in high school. He hit on her constantly (he was young, about 23 or 24). She continually turned down his advances, citing that he was her teacher, that she had a boyfriend, etc. When she graduated, he immediately came up to her and said 'I'm not your teacher anymore...' she turned and walked away.

PDilemma
02-23-2011, 07:33 PM
I have a friend who is a high school teacher, just about to start teaching at a new school in a new city, and despite advice to the contrary goes out to bars and picks up women. Well at the bar one day he picked up a girl and had sex with her. He later found out she had lied about her age (she was 16 or 17) and ended up being a student at his school. Not in his classes, but at his school.

Despite the fact that if she one day decides to she could potentially ruin his life just by truthfully saying she'd had sex with him, he still continues to meet girls at a bar. I don't get high school teachers who do that - the chances of running into your students, when the legal drinking age is 18, is insanely high.

I also have a friend who was hit on by a teacher while in high school. He hit on her constantly (he was young, about 23 or 24). She continually turned down his advances, citing that he was her teacher, that she had a boyfriend, etc. When she graduated, he immediately came up to her and said 'I'm not your teacher anymore...' she turned and walked away.

I worked for a principal once (different school than the above incident) who had met his wife while he was a student teacher and she was a senior in his class. They started dating as soon as she graduated and no one in the very small town thought it was questionable at all. I think it definitely was.

Young teachers in high schools need to have guidance about what the boundaries are. There truly is not a huge age gap between new teachers and seniors (four or five years, and sometimes less)--even less between student teachers and seniors. I had a college student in my classroom to observe once who many of the seniors he was observing told me they had been at the same parties as --the kid was only two years older than them. This is why it is so important to help young teachers understand and set boundaries. Colleges need to teach it and mentors need to reinforce it when they start their careers. Unfortunately, that is rarely happening.

And parents often do not understand when the lines are being crossed. They think the teacher is dedicated and interested in their kid's education if they are texting them, following them on Twitter and friends on Facebook. In reality, boundaries are being crossed when the students and teachers are communicating socially. After that incident, it became concrete policy at the school where it happened that teachers never personally call students, text them, friend them on a social network, etc...Yet some are still doing it and some parents don't understand why that line is drawn and criticize the teachers who follow the policy.

Ania
02-23-2011, 09:22 PM
What did he deserve? This (the terms of his plea originally):

1. To never be allowed to set foot in the school or at a school event again.
2. To lose his teaching license permanently (he did). And there needs to be a national database to ensure that no teacher who has lost a license in one state can ever get one in another state or be employed by a school in any capacity. Currently, there is not one. That is a serious problem that no one wants to deal with.
.

#1 (never setting foot in any school again) is not attainable given #2 (the possibility of moving to a different state and teaching there).
Therefore, the original plea agreement would have been a slap on the wrist for his crime. Thus, some (rather short) incarceration does not seem unreasonable to me, even if his crime was not as serious as molesting a 4-year-old. If he molested a 4-year-old he would undoubtedly (and rightly) get a longer sentence.

BigB08822
02-23-2011, 10:04 PM
It doesn't sound like he molested anyone, it sounds like he touched a girls shoulder. If that is molestation then throw me in jail. I once turned around and brushed up against a coworkers breasts. She didn't have me thrown in jail or fired. At worst he harassed her with the text messages.

Anwyay, about teachers being not much older than high schoolers. I remember in my senior year we had a new English teacher. She was very young, just graduated, probably 23 or so. I was 18 my entire senior year of high school (August birthday) and we could have legally been having sex. Of course, she is not my type, but you get the point. However, you can't really discriminate based on age when it comes to hiring. During Spring Break we saw her at the beach and she came over and had drinks with all of us and hung out. Looking back I see how entirely inappropriate that was but at the time none of us thought a thing about it.

PDilemma
02-23-2011, 10:08 PM
#1 (never setting foot in any school again) is not attainable given #2 (the possibility of moving to a different state and teaching there).
Therefore, the original plea agreement would have been a slap on the wrist for his crime. Thus, some (rather short) incarceration does not seem unreasonable to me, even if his crime was not as serious as molesting a 4-year-old. If he molested a 4-year-old he would undoubtedly (and rightly) get a longer sentence.

The reading comprehension in this thread seems rather low. :confused:

The original plea deal would have included a restriction on probation that banned him --for a probation period of something like five years structured and five additional years-- from setting foot in the school involved in this incident or ever attending an event at the school or that involved the school's students (i.e. an athletic contest at another school). Not every school just the school involved and events involving its students. By the time the five years supervised probation ended, he would no longer have really known any students there or had the desire he seemed to have to see them--he turned up at a couple of wrestling meets because he had coached that team.

Because he got the prison sentence instead, it was followed by a year of unsupervised probation and as such did not include that restriction. The original terms would have been, in many ways, stricter, and led to longer court supervision of the man.



Supervised long term probation also would have required him to remain in state which may have slowed the process of establishing himself elsewhere and trying to return to working with kids. He would not be able to do so here as the loss of his teaching license is on record and would be discovered quickly by any school he attempted to seek even just coaching employment at.

Of course, I'm telling you all that the system currently has gaping loop holes that allow teachers who lose licenses for crimes, abuse of children, etc...to later teach in other states and you are all more interested in cursing me. :confused:

And I'm telling you that often the very teachers everyone admires for their dedication and involvement are the most questionable ones. But the fact that Americans never want to think about that is nothing new. :rolleyes:

skatemommy
02-23-2011, 11:39 PM
As far as I am concerned, this "singer" committed internet porn. I am a parent and I would be pressing charges. This does not qualifiy as "art". This is one sick MoFo that should be on a watch list.

Angelskates
02-24-2011, 12:47 AM
PD, your words (which I quoted previously, bold mine):


But prison and a felony conviction for not actually doing anything was a bit extreme.

He had sexual contact by sending text messages. Just because he didn't have physical sexual contact doesn't mean he doesn't belong on the sexual predators list. He got put on the list just in time IMO; he made it clear he wanted sexual contact. I don't think the police (or the judge) should wait until these predators molest people to put them on the list *and* in jail. He got what he deserved. I wish all judges took sexual contact with a minor (or with an adult who is being harassed) as seriously. Too many people think like you, that it was only a text message. It was a text message that made it clear he wanted sex with a minor.

BigB08822
02-24-2011, 12:59 AM
As far as I am concerned, this "singer" committed internet porn. I am a parent and I would be pressing charges. This does not qualifiy as "art". This is one sick MoFo that should be on a watch list.

What charges would you be pressing? I am very curious to know what grounds you think you have to press charges on. Did he molest one or more of the children? Does this video actually meet the requirements to be considered child porn. Better yet, are there any such requirements? Are you going to sue film makers the world over for scenes involving both children and sex? I can think of a few off the top of my head (Hounddog has a very young Dakota Fanning being raped). The argument of whether this is child porn is very valid and I can't fault someone for saying yes. However, to "press charges" means he did something to your child (hypothetical child, in this case) and that does NOT seem to be the case. This seems like a civil matter, I'm not sure anything criminal was done. That is not surprising, everyone wants to sue someone.

skatemommy
02-24-2011, 01:08 AM
^ well Brian if someone posts my child's likeness on Youtube with a lyric that says they want their index finger in her vagina; yea momma bear gonna strike early and often.

BigB08822
02-24-2011, 05:24 AM
^ well Brian if someone posts my child's likeness on Youtube with a lyric that says they want their index finger in her vagina; yea momma bear gonna strike early and often.

That is understandable and I would be one pissed off parent, as well. But you did not answer my question. What charges would you press? What criminal act was committed? That is the question at the heart of the discussion. We all know what he did was wrong but was it criminal?

MacMadame
02-24-2011, 07:37 AM
It makes me ill that people go online to trap these people for some television show. I completely understand WHY they do it but two wrongs do not make a right, IMO.
They don't trap them. If they did, they'd never be able to prosecute them and these guys do get prosecuted and successfully too. They also don't do it just for the tv show. They did it before the show and they do a lot of cases not related to the show. The show helps pay the bills because they are contracted to do all the research for the show rather than the show using employees to do it.


It doesn't sound like he molested anyone, it sounds like he touched a girls shoulder. If that is molestation then throw me in jail. I once turned around and brushed up against a coworkers breasts. She didn't have me thrown in jail or fired.
Give me a break, Brian. He didn't accidentally brush up against her. He was coming on to her and touched her as part of that process.


That is understandable and I would be one pissed off parent, as well. But you did not answer my question. What charges would you press? What criminal act was committed? That is the question at the heart of the discussion. We all know what he did was wrong but was it criminal?
Making and distributing child pornography is a crime. So is exploiting a minor. Using a minor without their parents permission to make a video counts even if the video had content that was acceptable to Mr. Rogers.

curtisx
02-24-2011, 11:39 AM
its getting stupid im all for protection , but its getting to much