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Civic
02-22-2011, 06:47 AM
...There is also a very big dose of double standard going on (in general, not in this particular case). A guy does something and he is a registered sex offender, a women does the same and she is a cougar. Men molests children, women just take advantage of horny boys.

Not always. There have been some well-publicized cases of women who had the book thrown at them for having sex with underaged boys.

BigB08822
02-22-2011, 03:25 PM
Of course not always.

PDilemma
02-22-2011, 05:06 PM
A male teacher at a school I taught at hit on a 14 year old student with an inappropriate text message about wanting to date her and made an unsuccessful attempt to kiss her. He only touched her shoulders and she ran away from him.

He got ten months in prison and put on the sex offender list for ten years.

What he did was horrible and wrong. He deserved to lose his teaching certificate and his job. He even deserved to be charged with a crime. But the sentence seemed to most of us to be overkill.

At the same time, the female teacher in Florida who had sex with a student got a misdemeanor and probation because the judge thought she was "too pretty" for jail.

milanessa
02-22-2011, 06:48 PM
At the same time, the female teacher in Florida who had sex with a student got a misdemeanor and probation because the judge thought she was "too pretty" for jail.

That is absolutely untrue.

BigB08822
02-22-2011, 09:11 PM
Well regardless of the reason, the women, who does have sex with a child, gets off much more easily than the man who didn't even touch the girl in a sexual way (despite wanting to and even trying). Sex crimes are awful, they really are, but sometimes society has too much of a knee jerk reaction to them and the punishment does not always fit the crime.

tchaikovsky_177
02-22-2011, 10:02 PM
A male teacher at a school I taught at hit on a 14 year old student with an inappropriate text message about wanting to date her and made an unsuccessful attempt to kiss her. He only touched her shoulders and she ran away from him.

He got ten months in prison and put on the sex offender list for ten years.

What he did was horrible and wrong. He deserved to lose his teaching certificate and his job. He even deserved to be charged with a crime. But the sentence seemed to most of us to be overkill.

At the same time, the female teacher in Florida who had sex with a student got a misdemeanor and probation because the judge thought she was "too pretty" for jail.

He only got 10 months? :confused: And I definitely he think he deserved to be put on the sex offender list.

MacMadame
02-22-2011, 10:14 PM
It is actually not hard at all to have to be put on a sex offender list.

Do you have some stats to back that up?

For one thing, you can't be put on the list just for being *reported*. You have to be *convicted* of something. So, no, the parents can't just report their kid's dates and, boom, they are on the list. First, it has to be against the law... in many states, there has to not only be a minor but also there has to be a larger age difference than 2 years. Then, the DA has to decide to prosecute. Then, they have to win the case and then the judge has to agree that this is proper punishment.

I used hunt pedophiles and they were always telling people that they were put on the list for bogus reasons but they were also always lying. (Their favorite story is that they were put on for taking a leak in public. Um, they were flashing kids. Not peeing in a bush.) Plus, I know plenty of pedophiles who didn't end up on the list even though they did things that were illegal. They had good lawyers and got out of it with just probation or community service and no registration.

I do think that a number of gays have been put on this list in anti-gay states for doing things that shouldn't even be illegal, but I don't agree that it's easy to get on these lists in general especially for straight men.

milanessa
02-22-2011, 10:43 PM
I used hunt pedophiles and they were always telling people that they were put on the list for bogus reasons but they were also always lying. (Their favorite story is that they were put on for taking a leak in public. Um, they were flashing kids. Not peeing in a bush.)

Were you in law enforcement? I don't know what you mean by hunting pedophiles.

PDilemma
02-22-2011, 11:23 PM
He only got 10 months? :confused: And I definitely he think he deserved to be put on the sex offender list.

The entire incident was really horrible. I'm not denying that. Not at all. But prison and a felony conviction for not actually doing anything was a bit extreme. And, fwiw, he's not a pedophile (the DA even said that); he hit on a young girl, but not a prepubescent little girl-- this girl didn't look a day under 25.

And the incident was very telling about what people think is good and right in the teaching profession when in reality it is what is all wrong. This young man was 26 years old. He was a model teacher that had all the admiration of the parents and principal. He attended every game, every fundraiser, every play, every music performance--if there was an event at school he was there. He avoided the teacher table at lunch to eat with the kids and the teacher's lounge at all other times (lest he corrupt his love of the students with terrible complaining old veteran teachers). He came to work sick and exhausted. He was devoted to the school and his students twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. Everyone in charge and all the parents thought he was fabulous and the school needed more teachers like him. Heck...if he hadn't cracked and did what he did, some network might have made a movie about his devoted teacher life because society eats this sort of thing up.

What was he missing in the four years that he was everyone's model of a devoted and dedicated teacher? Normal adult social and family connections. And without that, and together with a problematic background, he violated the boundaries--in part because everyone was telling him it was so wonderful to not set any in the first place.

The other problem in all of this is that even though he should rightly never teach anywhere again, when his time on the list is up (it was to be ten years), he can probably acquire a teaching license or coach athletics in another state. Because there is not a national database to let states know when someone has lost a teaching license in another state. And that was the judge's justification for putting him on the list. Instead of using the sex offender registry for that purpose (because everyone seems to assume that anyone on that list has raped a preschooler), there needs to be a national database to keep suspended teachers in one state from being licensed in another.

I would add this, as well, at the same school three years later, a female teacher asked some female students to join her for private dinners and "dates" and made some undefined "advances" on them. The parents who reported it didn't even think of calling law enforcement, and the teacher was allowed to finish the school year and the school didn't even seek action on her teaching certificate. Same crime. Totally different response. Double standards much????

(And that is among the reasons that I left that school).

tchaikovsky_177
02-23-2011, 12:07 AM
The entire incident was really horrible. I'm not denying that. Not at all. But prison and a felony conviction for not actually doing anything was a bit extreme. And, fwiw, he's not a pedophile (the DA even said that); he hit on a young girl, but not a prepubescent little girl-- this girl didn't look a day under 25.

And the incident was very telling about what people think is good and right in the teaching profession when in reality it is what is all wrong. This young man was 26 years old. He was a model teacher that had all the admiration of the parents and principal. He attended every game, every fundraiser, every play, every music performance--if there was an event at school he was there. He avoided the teacher table at lunch to eat with the kids and the teacher's lounge at all other times (lest he corrupt his love of the students with terrible complaining old veteran teachers). He came to work sick and exhausted. He was devoted to the school and his students twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. Everyone in charge and all the parents thought he was fabulous and the school needed more teachers like him. Heck...if he hadn't cracked and did what he did, some network might have made a movie about his devoted teacher life because society eats this sort of thing up.

What was he missing in the four years that he was everyone's model of a devoted and dedicated teacher? Normal adult social and family connections. And without that, and together with a problematic background, he violated the boundaries--in part because everyone was telling him it was so wonderful to not set any in the first place.

The other problem in all of this is that even though he should rightly never teach anywhere again, when his time on the list is up (it was to be ten years), he can probably acquire a teaching license or coach athletics in another state. Because there is not a national database to let states know when someone has lost a teaching license in another state. And that was the judge's justification for putting him on the list. Instead of using the sex offender registry for that purpose (because everyone seems to assume that anyone on that list has raped a preschooler), there needs to be a national database to keep suspended teachers in one state from being licensed in another.

I would add this, as well, at the same school three years later, a female teacher asked some female students to join her for private dinners and "dates" and made some undefined "advances" on them. The parents who reported it didn't even think of calling law enforcement, and the teacher was allowed to finish the school year and the school didn't even seek action on her teaching certificate. Same crime. Totally different response. Double standards much????

(And that is among the reasons that I left that school).

Just because there is a double standard doesn't mean the man shouldn't be punished. Ideally both the male professor and the female professor would be punished, but one of them being punished is better than both of them getting a pass.

Is it common for 25-year-olds to be in high school? :eek: Unless this was a random girl he barely even knew, he must have known the girl's grade and figured out she was underage :confused: I find it hard to believe he didn't even think of the possibility the girl might be quite young if this is high school.

Honestly, I find it hard to garner any sympathy for the guy. High school teachers trying to take advantage of students is just :o

PDilemma
02-23-2011, 02:34 AM
Just because there is a double standard doesn't mean the man shouldn't be punished. Ideally both the male professor and the female professor would be punished, but one of them being punished is better than both of them getting a pass.

Is it common for 25-year-olds to be in high school? :eek: Unless this was a random girl he barely even knew, he must have known the girl's grade and figured out she was underage :confused: I find it hard to believe he didn't even think of the possibility the girl might be quite young if this is high school.

Honestly, I find it hard to garner any sympathy for the guy. High school teachers trying to take advantage of students is just :o

I didn't say he didn't know how old she was. The point was (and the DA said it to the press) that he did not fit the profile of a pedophile as the situation involved a student well past puberty. Pedophiles are sexually attracted to children not young women with grown up bodies.

She was also not his student. He taught 6th and 7th graders in a different building and the girl was a tenth grader who he had never had in his classroom. (Yes, that doesn't excuse anything, but it is, nevertheless, a fact.).

He took responsibility for it. He pled no contest and the DA made a deal that would have been a less severe punishment (shorter time on the infamous list, very structured probation and court supervised therapy). And the week of the sentencing, the pretty blond teacher in Florida got a really minimal punishment for a much more serious crime. The judge got pissed and gave this young man a severe punishment for a less serious crime and told the press that the case in Florida was the reason why.

My initial intent was not to discuss this case anyway. But, believe me, someday, someone you know well--that you work with or mentored (both the case for me in this situation--which happened five years ago) or are related to or are friends with or the child of your friend--will make a very big mistake. And you'll find out that it is hard to see that person as a black and white statistic or a cut and dried throw the book at him/her court case. Because it hurts. And you won't have such a knee jerk reaction to just curse the person to hell and back.

As for the topic of the registry--I know parents of young children who get on the web and look at the sex offender registry in order to know who to be terrified of in their neighborhood. This former teacher is an example of someone who is absolutely no danger to their preschoolers, nor are young men accused of statutory rape of their slightly younger girlfriends that have sometimes been placed on those registries (an example another poster brought up). But the people looking at those lists assume that everyone on them is a dangerous pedophile predator. That is not actually true. The lists need to, at the very least, indicate in some way what the person was actually convicted of. "Minor" can mean "16 year old ex-girlfriend" or it can mean "4 year old child in the neighborhood" and that is certainly two different things. "Sexual contact" can mean molesting a four year old or it can mean placing hands on a 14 year old's shoulders while everyone is fully clothed--again two entirely different things. When a parent sees a neighbor's name and address on that list, it would be better for all involved if the difference was clear.

Angelskates
02-23-2011, 02:38 AM
But prison and a felony conviction for not actually doing anything was a bit extreme.

But he did do something. He broke the law.

PDilemma
02-23-2011, 03:04 AM
But he did do something. He broke the law.

See above. Someday you'll get it. If you go through your whole life without going through the heartache of someone you know being involved in some sort of painful crime, God bless you, because you're lucky.

Our staff had an outside counselor come to walk us through our feelings who told us just what I said above. These cases are black and white and "that damn guy can burn in hell forever" until everyone involved ( the victim, her parents (one was a former employee of the school), the perpetrator) are people you know and care about. Then it is a whole different thing. Then you have feelings of compassion for everyone involved that are hard to sort out. And our society is so appalled by any crime that involves sexuality and minors that we are willing to make these kinds of incidents the whole definition of who people are. It's not so easy to define a person as merely a victim or merely a perpetrator when you know him/her. (And I know the victim as well--in fact, my sis-in-law is her godmother).

And I never said he didn't commit a crime. The fact that he was convicted of "sexual contact" with a minor and some parent of an eight year old who lives down the street from him now saw his name and address on a registry saying so and told his kid to run past that door or whatever, when he didn't actually make that contact seems a bit extreme. He touched her shoulders. Her interpretation was that he was attempting to kiss her. The school administration, police and court agreed with that interpretation because he had sent her a text saying they should date. That is all that happened and the guy gets to be lumped in on a list with people who molested toddlers with nothing to delineate a difference.

(And, once again, it should not have happened and he should have been punished and he should never be a coach or in a classroom again---but none of that makes the sex offender list as clear as it should be because whne looking at that list in most states, it is not clear what people's actual offenses were--which was my original point before you all decided to burn me at the stake for having a tiny bit of compassion for someone I worked with very closely for a semester when he did part of his student teaching in my classroom).

MacMadame
02-23-2011, 05:22 AM
Were you in law enforcement? I don't know what you mean by hunting pedophiles.
I was part of Perverted Justice for a while. They do all the research for the To Catch a Predator show including making first contact with these pervs and getting them to the house where the show is filmed. I didn't do the heavy lifting though. I didn't have the stomach for it.

Speaking of which... PDilemma defending a teacher who hit on a young girl more than once because he didn't "do anything" makes me ill. It's precisely what's wrong with society IMO and why so many of these crimes go unreported and are lightly prosecuted. That teacher knew what he was doing. He was using his position of authority to get sexual power over a minor and therefore, by definition he was not a wonderful teacher and, just because he didn't rape the girl or even grope her, that doesn't mean he "didn't do anything."

Angelskates
02-23-2011, 10:41 AM
Speaking of which... PDilemma defending a teacher who hit on a young girl more than once because he didn't "do anything" makes me ill. It's precisely what's wrong with society IMO and why so many of these crimes go unreported and are lightly prosecuted. That teacher knew what he was doing. He was using his position of authority to get sexual power over a minor and therefore, by definition he was not a wonderful teacher and, just because he didn't rape the girl or even grope her, that doesn't mean he "didn't do anything."

ITA.

And PD, I do get it, I just strongly disagree with you.