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Jot the Dot Dot
01-16-2011, 05:19 PM
Battle of the Brians, hands down. And the whole Nancy and Tonya saga was a circus act, not a rivalry.

PS- I'm waiting for esta to vote for Pasha vs. ussova :lol:

Maximillian
01-16-2011, 05:20 PM
Looking back it doesnt seem that great to me. I guess since it was so competitive it was great in that sense. However Fratianne and her coach whining after every time they lost to Poetzsch (even times it was clearly justified and Linda was in fact overmarked like the 78 Worlds), the bland and rather dull skating of both, the fact neither ever had any kind of historic performance or historical battle, and that all the contests seemed to involve either splats (77 and 79 Worlds by Poetzsch), controversy (Fratianne losing in 1980), or just overall mediocre skating (1980 Worlds except for LP by Fratianne) and I dont see it as anything memorable or great.

Personally I would have been glad when both just retired and they moved on to some more interesting, consistent, and classy skaters. I would rather watch tapes of Watanabe, Marie Allen, Sandy Lenz, Denise Beillmann, or Elene Voderezova than either of any of their performances anyway.

This. I've been watching a lot of competitions from this era and Watanabe and Allen have it all over Poetzch and Fratianne, wish that could have been better reflected in the results (neither of them were the most consistent of souls, but there were definitely some instances where they were clearly superior to the other two), Bielmann was of course brilliant as well, but I think her greatness is pretty well remembered whereas Watanabe and Allen have faded from memory.

Still Judge Judy we'll have to agree to disagree on Kwan and Slutskaya; arguments have been made ad nauseum (and I was a part of many) for both skater's technical superiority (eg. Slutskaya jumped higher but had no run-out or flow, whereas Kwan's jumps were lower but had the best run-out and flow in the business. Slutskaya spun faster with bad positions, Kwan spun slower with better positions; Slutskaya skated faster with poor posture, Kwan skated slower with impeccable posture.) but really the overall impression was that there was nothing in the technical realm that Slutskaya did better than Kwan that could overcome the significant deficit she built up in overall quality compared to Kwan.

Seerek
01-16-2011, 05:47 PM
However Fratianne and her coach whining after every time they lost to Poetzsch (even times it was clearly justified and Linda was in fact overmarked like the 78 Worlds).
/
Judge for yourself: are these free skate rankings justified from 1978 worlds?

1 - Linda Fratianne (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUUdi2wHRwI)

2 - Denise Biellmann (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_cppLmC39M&feature=related)

3 - Anett Poetzsch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMX3V0x8v8k&feature=related)

4 - Lisa Marie Allen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxQc3Lvj6sk)

5 - Elena Vodorezova (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlopVpUPAQY)

6 - Susanna Driano (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADvhdVgDPkE)

7 - Dagmar Lurz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-9pA6euADA)

8 - Emi Watanabe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze1PselZfZY)

10 - Priscilla Hill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqSofhmr_ho)

floskate
01-16-2011, 06:08 PM
Here's my HQ video of Lisa Marie Allen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0xA3hfEU30

Of the top skaters in the free I would have had it:

1 - Lisa Marie Allen
2 - Fratianne
3 - Vodorezova
4 - Poetszch
5 - Biellmann

Wierdly I was reading an old skating magazine this morning that had reports from these Worlds and the writer (not an American btw) suggested that Linda lost because Anett scaled back her SP combo from a triple jump to a double axel combo and thus went clean. Fratianne, Biellmann, Vodorezova and Allen did a triple jump for the SP. Back then when triple jumps in ladies were still quite rare, there wasn't much difference shown in the marking of technical merit.

Poetzsch skated as well as she had at this point in time in the free but the program is loaded with safety nets for when she inevitably doubled her triple attempts and it all starts to look like stalking one jump. Linda - while not my fave by any stretch of the imagination - at least had a more cohesive program with better quality elements and a do or die approach to her triples. It was then or never. Her only mistake the whole week, where she was under real pressure as the defending champion, was a double 3 out her her triple toe.

ETA: Swapped Vodorezova & Biellmann as I got them the wrong way round :o

judgejudy27
01-16-2011, 06:14 PM
My rankings for the LP at the 78 Worlds would have been:

1. Lisa Marie Allen- best overall performance by far IMO.

2. Elena Voderezova- best jumping of night.

3. Annett Poetzsch- her 2nd best ever long program ever.

4. Linda Fratianne- boring and she missed a jump too. Joke she won the long program with only 1 clean triple IMHO (ok Marie Allen only had 1 but the overall skating was far superior). I would have put her over Poetzsch if she had landed the triple toe cleanly though.

5. Denise Biellmann- mistakes, very undeveloped artistically compared to later years at that point.

olympic
01-16-2011, 06:35 PM
Looking back it doesnt seem that great to me. I guess since it was so competitive it was great in that sense. However Fratianne and her coach whining after every time they lost to Poetzsch (even times it was clearly justified and Linda was in fact overmarked like the 78 Worlds), the bland and rather dull skating of both, the fact neither ever had any kind of historic performance or historical battle, and that all the contests seemed to involve either splats (77 and 79 Worlds by Poetzsch), controversy (Fratianne losing in 1980), or just overall mediocre skating (1980 Worlds except for LP by Fratianne) and I dont see it as anything memorable or great.

Personally I would have been glad when both just retired and they moved on to some more interesting, consistent, and classy skaters. I would rather watch tapes of Watanabe, Marie Allen, Sandy Lenz, Denise Beillmann, or Elene Voderezova than either of any of their performances anyway.

I recall that FC was complaining about a conspiracy after the '80 Olympics, but did something happen in '78, too?

I don't condone charges of conspiracy w/o evidence but FC was probably frustrated in '80 that Fratianne did better in Figures, outperformed her '79 world champion LP performance, yet still barely lost to Poetzsch perhaps overscored in the SP

______________________________________

Some of my fave rivalries -

Witt v. Thomas
Kwan v. Lipinski
Kwan v. Slutskaya
Yagudin v. Plushenko
Asada v. Kim
Lysacek v. Weir

all_empty
01-16-2011, 07:00 PM
It's fascinating to look at the free skates from 1978. What I found most interesting was how young these skaters were - Voderezova was just 13(!) at the time, Biellman 15, Potzsch and Allen only 17.

I can see why Fratianne placed first despite her somewhat rigid presentation. She had a miss on the 3T, but had a 2Lz+2T and 2A+2T and lots of difficult entrances and connecting moves.

Biellmann showed shades of greatness to come, but I definitely feel Allen should've been ahead of her. Speaking of Allen, could that program *be* and more '70s? The classical mishmash complete with the requisite "Firebird" :lol: She was lovely though.

Potzsch was solid too, it's shocking to see how similar Katarina Witt's skating is to hers.

Mafke
01-16-2011, 07:45 PM
Potzsch was solid too, it's shocking to see how similar Katarina Witt's skating is to hers.

Ah, I see you've never visited Planet Jutta Muller before where all the lady skaters are ... pretty much the same.

briancoogaert
01-16-2011, 08:04 PM
Thanks for all the links from 1978 Worlds !
The only programs I've watched of Linda Fratianne and Annet Poetzsch are 1980 Olympics'. And really, I think Linda wuzrobbed !
But at 1978 Worlds, Annet's LP is better than Linda's IMO.

judgejudy27
01-16-2011, 08:17 PM
I am not a big fan of Witt, but Witt is way better than Poetzsch IMO. Poetzsch never even beat Fratianne in a short or long program after 76 while Witt would blow a pededstrian skater like Fratianne away in free skating, even the younger Witt probably. And of course Witt was far more consistent than Poetzsch who atleast half the time bombed in the free skating (77 Worlds, 79 Worlds, 80 Worlds, many other events). Poetzsch retired after 1980 since she trained with Witt and knew Witt would blow past her with ease almost immediately with the new factored scoring.

briancoogaert
01-16-2011, 08:29 PM
Poetzsch retired after 1980 since she trained with Witt and knew Witt would blow past her with ease almost immediately with the new factored scoring.
And since she was the current 4-time Euro champ, 2-time World champ and Olympic champion. :hat1:

floskate
01-16-2011, 08:31 PM
I am not a big fan of Witt, but Witt is way better than Poetzsch IMO. Poetzsch never even beat Fratianne in a short or long program after 76 while Witt would blow a pededstrian skater like Fratianne away in free skating, even the younger Witt probably. And of course Witt was far more consistent than Poetzsch who atleast half the time bombed in the free skating (77 Worlds, 79 Worlds, 80 Worlds, many other events). Poetzsch retired after 1980 since she trained with Witt and knew Witt would blow past her with ease almost immediately with the new factored scoring.

How do you know this? Did Anett tell you personally? ;) Actually Anett was entered for Europeans in 1981 but withdrew with an 'injury'. I believe the same occured for Worlds in Hartford. Apparently Anett wanted to turn pro and who can blame her? She'd been competing in major senior competition since 1973 aged 12. I don't think Witt's superior free skating was necessarily the issue for Anett in 1981. Even with the advent of factored placements, Witt's poor figures and Anett's great ones would have made sure Witt came nowhere near her at least for one more season.

judgejudy27
01-16-2011, 08:46 PM
Well I remember reading a book at Chapters although I dont have it at home that Witt was outskating Poetzsch technically in practice at only 13 and 14 and that Annett was resentful of her because of it and a bit cold towards her, and also was terrified of the younger more talented skater coming up training with the same coach.

By the 1981 Worlds I dont know where Poetzsch would be placing in free skating but she wouldnt have been able to beat people like Biellmann or Zayak (and possibly even a still very young Witt) even with her past best efforts, so 3rd or 4th place in the long program as a starting point if she did her potential best, but then when you factor in her own inconsistency in free skating and who knows how far she could possibly drop in the free skating portions and how that would factor in if she kept winning figures.

allezfred
01-16-2011, 08:48 PM
Where's Midori vs Kristi?

Maximillian
01-16-2011, 10:39 PM
Poetzsch retired after 1980 since she trained with Witt and knew Witt would blow past her with ease almost immediately with the new factored scoring.

Actually Poetzch was entered in both the 1981 Worlds and Euros and withdrew due to injury. Carola Paul replaced her.

ETA: Floskate beat me to the above info.