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Maximillian
01-03-2011, 10:08 PM
Seyfert was a lovely skater, should have won the FS in Grenoble over Fleming. I would argue she had it all over Fleming who I think is THE most over-rated skater in history.

olympic
01-03-2011, 10:22 PM
Seyfert was a lovely skater, should have won the FS in Grenoble over Fleming. I would argue she had it all over Fleming who I think is THE most over-rated skater in history.

My understanding was that Peggy was amazing in the Figures. She also won 1st place votes from all 9 judges overall after the Free Skate, so it wasn't like it was a close competition

judgejudy27
01-03-2011, 10:26 PM
Back then the free skating was like a victory gap. I agree Fleming was vastly overrated as a free skater but Seyfert couldnt have beaten her even if she had easily won the free skating. Looking at points Fleming seems even more dominant than Schuba was in figures, and her free skating is obviously alot better than Schuba.

olympic
01-03-2011, 10:30 PM
Back then the free skating was like a victory gap. I agree Fleming was vastly overrated as a free skater but Seyfert couldnt have beaten her even if she had easily won the free skating. Looking at points Fleming seems even more dominant than Schuba was in figures, and her free skating is obviously alot better than Schuba.

Peggy was graceful and had the whole complement of jumps [2x on down - which was everything in the 60s] unlike Schuba. She also did a 2l-2l combo which was good stuff back then

skatesindreams
01-03-2011, 10:41 PM
Peggy Fleming 1968 US Championships:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdPKgg8SGys

This was one of her best competitive performances.

judgejudy27
01-03-2011, 10:42 PM
I still prefer Seyfert to Fleming as a free skater though. I understand though with figures there is no way Seyfert could have beaten her.

Maximillian
01-03-2011, 10:46 PM
I should clarify what I meant, which is that I think that as a freeskater Fleming was overrated. I recall seeing Seyfert's FS from Grenoble and it wasn't great, but it was better than Fleming's. Of course as was stated above, the FS was just a victory lap for Peg, but I argue on principle that regardless of final placing Seyfert should've finished first in that portion of the competition. If memory serves correct, Gaby's '69 FS was the real masterpiece (used to be online). She's truly an underrated great, in my mind, much the superior of her much lauded successors Poetzch (well no one thinks her fs was great) and Witt.

Squibble
01-03-2011, 10:51 PM
My understanding was that Peggy was amazing in the Figures. She also won 1st place votes from all 9 judges overall after the Free Skate, so it wasn't like it was a close competition

Actually, one judge placed Seyfert first in the FS. But another one placed her sixth!

http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/winter/1968/FSK/womens-singles-free-skating.html

I watched Seyfert's Grenoble FS and some of her other programs a few months ago when they were on Youtube. I liked her a lot, but to say she was a better free skater than Fleming would be a stretch.

On a different, related note, why is Seyfert's "triple loop" at 1968 Worlds credited as the first triple loop by a woman, when Surya Bonaly was never credited with a quadruple salchow? As far as I can see from the videos, Bonaly's 4S was no more underrotated than Seyfert's 3R. Indeed, it was less underrotated, if it was underrotated at all.

skatesindreams
01-03-2011, 11:05 PM
I can't resist sharing these:

Janet Lynn 1972 US Nationals filmed by Howard Craker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nAx6VeScsg

Janet Lynn 1973 US Nationals filmed by Howard Craker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR15rloAB0s

olympic
01-04-2011, 01:00 AM
On a different, related note, why is Seyfert's "triple loop" at 1968 Worlds credited as the first triple loop by a woman, when Surya Bonaly was never credited with a quadruple salchow? As far as I can see from the videos, Bonaly's 4S was no more underrotated than Seyfert's 3R. Indeed, it was less underrotated, if it was underrotated at all.

Perhaps, p-o-l-i-t-i-k

manleywoman
01-04-2011, 01:08 AM
Actually, one judge placed Seyfert first in the FS. But another one placed her sixth!

http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/winter/1968/FSK/womens-singles-free-skating.html


Wow, and Janet Lynn got from 3rd to 10th!

Seerek
01-04-2011, 02:05 AM
I think like Schuba, Peggy Flemming had usually such a cushion after figures that she could afford several mistakes in the free skate and still win overall. That being said, I never thought that Peggy watered down her LP content even with her big figures lead - she still had 2 or 3 2 axels planned in the program, plus some 2-2 combinations.


Even a free skate like Seyfert's 1970 World Championship LP (which she had to come from behind to beat Schuba) would still not have been able to beat Flemming overall. Unfortunately, the video for that free skate is no longer on youtube.

matti
01-04-2011, 02:40 AM
Actually, one judge placed Seyfert first in the FS. But another one placed her sixth!

The Ossi judge put her first and the Kanadian sixth.
http://winter-olympic-memories.com/html/results/jp_3d/10_grenoble/10_figure/10_figure_w_ex.htm

They had to do only five figures at the 1968 Olympics. I think the easiest one was omitted (the counter?), but it was still 60% of the total score. Four years later the weight of the figures was dropped to 50%, but they did all the six figures.


Looking at points Fleming seems even more dominant than Schuba was in figures.
Hmmmm 1968 figures were 60% of the total score, 1969-72 only 50%.

gkelly
01-04-2011, 02:56 AM
On a different, related note, why is Seyfert's "triple loop" at 1968 Worlds credited as the first triple loop by a woman,

Was it? Where is it documented that it was credited? I'd never heard of it before this thread.

Squibble
01-04-2011, 03:57 AM
Was it? Where is it documented that it was credited? I'd never heard of it before this thread.

Everything I've ever read on the subject says that in 1968 Seyfert became the first woman to land a triple loop in competition, and the now-vanished Youtube video, posted by Eva Pawlik's son ("viennapianoman") said specifically that it was at Euros (and indeed showed it in all its underrotated glory). Her 1968 Olympic FS was up too, and I think her 1968 Worlds one was as well. She certainly didn't do one at the Olympics.

It may be that back in 1968, no one at the ISU was ratifying jumps the way they did in Bonaly's day. In 1968, very few women had even attempted a triple jump in competition, and it was extremely unusual for a man to attempt more than one in a single program.