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antmanb
01-21-2011, 10:10 AM
Lutz - the most difficult jump and Irina's highest one. Way higher than Michelle (2x). Sometimes however she lost speed at the end while Michelle had usually better flow out of it. We must remember though it was not always like that. Many of Irina's lutzes had good flow. Both had similar transition before the lutz. Michelle flutzed, Irina took off from flat or slight outside edge so next point for her. Both used the jump in combination, Irina usually with double loop, Michelle usually with double toe. This season the difference is bigger, 1.4 for 2T and 1.8 for 2L. However, Irina tried the most difficult triple-triple (3Lz+3L) and landed it succesfully three times in her career. Michelle tried it once and in fact did 3Lz and 2.25L and fell. Irin wins lutz.


Personally I think Irina telegraphed her jumps a lot more than Michelle which, coupled with Michelle's often superior flow and landing positions leaves the jumps about equal, for me, but these are all down to people's personal preferences and opinions.

On the Lutz specifically the reason why I personally would give the nod to michelle - Irina did not start landing it consistently until she started using the new set up of mohawk, cross on in front. She usually set that up skating forwards for most of the length of the rink. Irina went through phases where she would not repeat the lutz doing only one in the LP. Then when she did repeat it, it came as the third jump in the programme with identical set up. Kwan always did two, the second lutz was always the penultimate jump and was always preceded by diagonal steps. At times she opened with the classic long BO edge and then used a different set up to the second one. That, to me, shows a great command of the lutz, it is very rare for skaters to be able to confortably interchange two entrances to the same triple jump.

Ant

antmanb
01-21-2011, 10:11 AM
Double post

bartek
01-21-2011, 11:49 AM
Personally I think Irina telegraphed her jumps a lot more than Michelle which, coupled with Michelle's often superior flow and landing positions leaves the jumps about equal, for me, but these are all down to people's personal preferences and opinions.

On the Lutz specifically the reason why I personally would give the nod to michelle - Irina did not start landing it consistently until she started using the new set up of mohawk, cross on in front. She usually set that up skating forwards for most of the length of the rink. Irina went through phases where she would not repeat the lutz doing only one in the LP. Then when she did repeat it, it came as the third jump in the programme with identical set up. Kwan always did two, the second lutz was always the penultimate jump and was always preceded by diagonal steps. At times she opened with the classic long BO edge and then used a different set up to the second one. That, to me, shows a great command of the lutz, it is very rare for skaters to be able to confortably interchange two entrances to the same triple jump.

Ant

Ok, that's right Irina stopped doing two lutzes in her late career but I was talking about their rivarly in 2000-2002. In her early years Irina had problems with lutz and I don't know if the reason was the entrance. I think that she was just worse skater before she came back strongly in fall of 1999. And I think that doing mohawk right before the jump make it more difficult actually, at least for me ;). And you know, that's brilliant Michelle did two lutzez with wonderful flow but there was thing that dispell it all, in fact she did flutzes, not lutzes, we don't know how her lutz would've looked if she hadn't switched to deep inside edge and she was not capable of fixing it. I forgot to put telegraph issue in my breakdown of their jumps, but Irina telegraphed only lutz and flip and still this didn't happend always. Soemtimes she was able not to telegraph and still did wonderfull super-height lutz or flip. And in case of Michelle lutz, it was always flutz. Irina took off from flat which is better and sometimes she had that slight outside edge, barely but still.

caldera
01-21-2011, 12:32 PM
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olympic
01-21-2011, 12:58 PM
Just watched the original posted video. Interesting that Slute had severe ur problems on several 3-3s, but fixed them in time for CoP around 2005. Showed real dedication to the new system

antmanb
01-21-2011, 03:42 PM
Ok, that's right Irina stopped doing two lutzes in her late career but I was talking about their rivarly in 2000-2002. In her early years Irina had problems with lutz and I don't know if the reason was the entrance. I think that she was just worse skater before she came back strongly in fall of 1999. And I think that doing mohawk right before the jump make it more difficult actually, at least for me ;). And you know, that's brilliant Michelle did two lutzez with wonderful flow but there was thing that dispell it all, in fact she did flutzes, not lutzes, we don't know how her lutz would've looked if she hadn't switched to deep inside edge and she was not capable of fixing it. I forgot to put telegraph issue in my breakdown of their jumps, but Irina telegraphed only lutz and flip and still this didn't happend always. Soemtimes she was able not to telegraph and still did wonderfull super-height lutz or flip. And in case of Michelle lutz, it was always flutz. Irina took off from flat which is better and sometimes she had that slight outside edge, barely but still.

OK well if we're going by 2000-2002 Michelle then there was no flutz because that was cleaned up by 1998 ;) Also did Irina ever land a 3Lz/3Lp in 2000-2002? Edit - looking at your video the answer is no Irina did not land that combination except at Russian nationals where the loop was under-rotated and the Lutz badly flutzed so I think the bonus Irina get for attempting the difficult combination has to be countered by the fact she didn't land a clean one in the period of comparison, and the fact the jump under scrutiny was flutzed.

Ant

bartek
01-21-2011, 08:26 PM
OK well if we're going by 2000-2002 Michelle then there was no flutz because that was cleaned up by 1998 ;) Also did Irina ever land a 3Lz/3Lp in 2000-2002? Edit - looking at your video the answer is no Irina did not land that combination except at Russian nationals where the loop was under-rotated and the Lutz badly flutzed so I think the bonus Irina get for attempting the difficult combination has to be countered by the fact she didn't land a clean one in the period of comparison, and the fact the jump under scrutiny was flutzed.

Ant

Irina landed the combo at 2000 GPF with underrotated loop and then landed fully rotated 3S+3L. Lutz from Russian Nats 2001 was not "badly flutzed" since Irina never badly flutzed, she took it off from flat, she almost always did so (maybe sometimes just a slight outside edge). And the loop was from Russian Nats combo was underrotated but it would have got 70% value, it didn't cross 1/4 border that much. Michelle cleaned up her flutz by 1998? No way, look at her lutzes after 1998, all the time she flutzed. Everyone critisise Mao or Sasha for flutzing but when it comes to Michelle it's not that big problem...

antmanb
01-24-2011, 09:48 AM
Irina landed the combo at 2000 GPF with underrotated loop and then landed fully rotated 3S+3L. Lutz from Russian Nats 2001 was not "badly flutzed" since Irina never badly flutzed, she took it off from flat, she almost always did so (maybe sometimes just a slight outside edge). And the loop was from Russian Nats combo was underrotated but it would have got 70% value, it didn't cross 1/4 border that much. Michelle cleaned up her flutz by 1998? No way, look at her lutzes after 1998, all the time she flutzed. Everyone critisise Mao or Sasha for flutzing but when it comes to Michelle it's not that big problem...

The GPF 2000 was not only servely under-rotated but didn't that also take place in 1999 - outsid eof your comparison window? You seem to have gone back and revised your dates for comparison and the criteria just so that you can say Irina was the best! That's fine if you think so, but when you have to go back and refine your statements again and again, change the criteria and the dates when they apply then you must know your on shaky ground.
I also don't understand what the relevance of Irina landing a 3S+3Lp is to a discussion and comparison of a lutz? The Russian Nationals lutz was flutzed badly - it went off an inside edge - i watched your video of it!

Ant

bartek
01-24-2011, 07:00 PM
The GPF 2000 was not only servely under-rotated but didn't that also take place in 1999 - outsid eof your comparison window? You seem to have gone back and revised your dates for comparison and the criteria just so that you can say Irina was the best! That's fine if you think so, but when you have to go back and refine your statements again and again, change the criteria and the dates when they apply then you must know your on shaky ground.
I also don't understand what the relevance of Irina landing a 3S+3Lp is to a discussion and comparison of a lutz? The Russian Nationals lutz was flutzed badly - it went off an inside edge - i watched your video of it!

Ant

You say that I revise my dates while you're the one who have wrong dates. GPF in season 1999-2000 took place in january of 2000. If you don't believe me look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999%E2%80%932000_Grand_Prix_of_Figure_Skating_Fin al As you can see your insults were wrong, I don't change criteria and refine my dates. In every post I referred to years 2000-2002 but we can very well take into consideration whole 1999-2000 season since this was the first season Irina was top medal contender (and it was like that for the whole season, not only since GPF), still it doeasn't matter, GPF took place in 2000. 3Lz+3L landed there was not that very underrotated, it would have probably got 70% value so underrotation mark instead of a downgrade. I think that severe underrotation occures when it's bigger than half a turn so for example Michelle attempt at that combo (2001 Skate Canada) was certainly severely underrotated, in fact it was almost a double loop. Watch my video again, and look again at the combo from Russian Nats 2001, this time carefully, than compare it with all the others lutzes of Irina's, you will notice (or not) that thay all took off from flat which is better than Michelle's flutzing. And Michelle never fixed her flutz as you said in earlier post. Look at, let's say 1997 Worlds, then 2001 Worlds and than 2004 Worlds.

Marco
01-25-2011, 07:18 AM
Just watched the original posted video. Interesting that Slute had severe ur problems on several 3-3s, but fixed them in time for CoP around 2005. Showed real dedication to the new system

She also did wonderful 3/3s (3toe3toe from Nagano Olympics) and (3sal3loop from 1997 Worlds) back when she was very sloppy.

Her 2005 3/3s (Worlds, then GPs) were also wonderful ofcourse.

Besides these 5 3/3s, her other 3/3s in between this period were either not fully rotated or just not very well done in general. She did pay more attention to other aspects of her skating and then nursing her illness during this period.

antmanb
01-25-2011, 10:04 AM
You say that I revise my dates while you're the one who have wrong dates. GPF in season 1999-2000 took place in january of 2000. If you don't believe me look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999%E2%80%932000_Grand_Prix_of_Figure_Skating_Fin al As you can see your insults were wrong, I don't change criteria and refine my dates. In every post I referred to years 2000-2002 but we can very well take into consideration whole 1999-2000 season since this was the first season Irina was top medal contender (and it was like that for the whole season, not only since GPF), still it doeasn't matter, GPF took place in 2000. 3Lz+3L landed there was not that very underrotated, it would have probably got 70% value so underrotation mark instead of a downgrade. I think that severe underrotation occures when it's bigger than half a turn so for example Michelle attempt at that combo (2001 Skate Canada) was certainly severely underrotated, in fact it was almost a double loop. Watch my video again, and look again at the combo from Russian Nats 2001, this time carefully, than compare it with all the others lutzes of Irina's, you will notice (or not) that thay all took off from flat which is better than Michelle's flutzing. And Michelle never fixed her flutz as you said in earlier post. Look at, let's say 1997 Worlds, then 2001 Worlds and than 2004 Worlds.


We'll have to agree to disagree, to my eye Irina definitely flutzed in the Russian nationals, and looking at their entire career not just the prescribed window you have enforced in this thread, Michelle had greater success with her jumps because of her solid technique, and for the reasons metioned earlier, despite Irina's greater height in many of the jumps, I think they are about equal in jumps with Irina winning some and Michelle winning others.

Ant

bartek
01-25-2011, 03:11 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree, to my eye Irina definitely flutzed in the Russian nationals, and looking at their entire career not just the prescribed window you have enforced in this thread, Michelle had greater success with her jumps because of her solid technique, and for the reasons metioned earlier, despite Irina's greater height in many of the jumps, I think they are about equal in jumps with Irina winning some and Michelle winning others.

Ant

I did full breakdwon of their jumps and gave you reasons why all Irina's jumps are better. The only jump were they can be equal is toeloop. In case of lutz, flip, salchow, loop and axel Irina is just superior to Michelle. Michelle has wonderfull jumps, that's true, but I'm sorry, in this area of skating Irina is better. Even if we don't compare them in years 2000-2002, remember that, while Irina wasn't a gold medal contender before 1999, Michelle wasn't one after 2004.

Extranjera
01-25-2011, 05:56 PM
It's hard to compare Michelle's and Irina's jumps, because Irina had gorgeous speed and height, on the other hand Michelle had beautiful landing position. I prefered to watch Michelle's jumps which were very soft and perfectly fit her programs, however I think Irina was a better jumper. She tried more difficult combinations and even though most of her 3-3 would be DG under CoP, her jumps were "bigger" than Michelle's

antmanb
01-26-2011, 02:49 PM
I did full breakdwon of their jumps and gave you reasons why all Irina's jumps are better. The only jump were they can be equal is toeloop. In case of lutz, flip, salchow, loop and axel Irina is just superior to Michelle. Michelle has wonderfull jumps, that's true, but I'm sorry, in this area of skating Irina is better. Even if we don't compare them in years 2000-2002, remember that, while Irina wasn't a gold medal contender before 1999, Michelle wasn't one after 2004.

Yes you did, you gave your opinions which are not fact, you even used IMO irrelevant mentions (like i have said several times discussing salchows and loops in assessing a lutz) to make your conclusions. I disagree with them. That is why i said we'll have to agree to disagree neither is going to change the other's mind ;)

Ant

bartek
01-26-2011, 10:09 PM
Yes you did, you gave your opinions which are not fact, you even used IMO irrelevant mentions (like i have said several times discussing salchows and loops in assessing a lutz) to make your conclusions. I disagree with them. That is why i said we'll have to agree to disagree neither is going to change the other's mind ;)

Ant

What exactly was not a fact? More height in Irina's jump? Or transitions before loops or lutzes? Or maybe more difficult triple-triples of Irina's?