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Sasha'sSpins
01-13-2011, 04:15 AM
Mikis triple triple are definitely more rotated and has better landing and flow out of them and look way more impressive and explosive. Irina jumps come to almost completely stop after the Loop, but her attempts at the latter years of her career improve alot (2005 World, 2005 COR). Kudo for both of them for pushing the technical bar. Isn't Irina is the first lady to land the 3Lz+3Lo???

ITA. Also, Irina often 'telegraphed' her jumps which was the only thing I could not stand about them. Other than that I LOVED her athleticism. She truly was an awesome jumper for her day.

taf2002
01-13-2011, 04:32 PM
Isn't Irina is the first lady to land the 3Lz+3Lo???

I never saw one of hers that was rotated on the 2nd jump.

bartek
01-13-2011, 08:08 PM
I never saw one of hers that was rotated on the 2nd jump.

2005 Worlds was rotated enough to be counted as a triple-triple and Russian Nats 2000-2001 could have been rotated as well though I can't really tell because of the ankle.

briancoogaert
01-13-2011, 08:27 PM
Isn't Irina is the first lady to land the 3Lz+3Lo???
Yes, at 2000 GPF.
Her combo was not perfect, but was considered as the first 3Lz/3Loop ever ratified.

DreamSkates
01-17-2011, 04:32 AM
Interesting video. I remember her as a better jumper than I now see in the videos. But Kudos to her for going after the hard jump combos. Some looked successful, more often not fully rotated on second jump or a fall. She was a fierce competitor!

Marco
01-17-2011, 06:53 AM
In hindsight, if she had stuck with just the 3toe3toe, I believe she could have been even more successful at the world championships.

judgejudy27
01-18-2011, 05:50 PM
In hindsight, if she had stuck with just the 3toe3toe, I believe she could have been even more successful at the world championships.

She probably would have won the 2000 Worlds with just a 3 toe-3 toe since that panel was clearly wanting one of the Russian ladies to win, and Butyrskaya had already mucked up her performance. The 2001 Worlds? Not sure really, only if the overall performance was much better than it was that night.

2002 and 2006 Olympics she probably should have gone in with that plan. That is all she would have needed to win, if that.

bartek
01-19-2011, 02:09 AM
She probably would have won the 2000 Worlds with just a 3 toe-3 toe since that panel was clearly wanting one of the Russian ladies to win, and Butyrskaya had already mucked up her performance. The 2001 Worlds? Not sure really, only if the overall performance was much better than it was that night.

2002 and 2006 Olympics she probably should have gone in with that plan. That is all she would have needed to win, if that.

That's right but she was more ambitious and went for difficult combos with loop at the end. It's likely that the judges would have given her the gold at 2001 Worlds just for 3S+3L+2T but again she was more ambitious and wanted to land two very difficult 3+3+2 combinations! There aren't many ladies who could even dream about 3Lz+3L including Yu-na Kim and Mao Asada.

pinky166
01-19-2011, 02:44 AM
^^ Um, Mao did 3f-3lo regularly in her jumping prime, so I'm sure she was capable of 3(f)lz-3lo as well, especially considering her 3f really looks like a 3lz due to the way she preps for it. Right now, no, I don't think she could pull it off, but a few years ago she most certainly could.

all_empty
01-19-2011, 04:27 AM
^^ Um, Mao did 3f-3lo regularly in her jumping prime, so I'm sure she was capable of 3(f)lz-3lo as well

Correct, when she first burst onto the scene her jump layout was 3Lz+3Lo, 3F, 2A in the short, and 3Lz+3Lo in the free.

In regards to Slutskaya, I think I remember her saying loop combinations came earlier to her, similar to Miki Ando.

El Rey
01-19-2011, 06:03 PM
In hindsight, if she had stuck with just the 3toe3toe, I believe she could have been even more successful at the world championships.

Maybe. But her reputation could also have been hurt. She was probably helped by being known as the great athlete that attempted very difficult triple-triples. If all she ever had planned was the same jump content as Michelle, would they have gone with Irina if they both landed the same jumps? IMO, without the triple-triples, the only thing she did better than Michelle was skater faster.

robinhood
01-19-2011, 09:11 PM
Maybe. But her reputation could also have been hurt. She was probably helped by being known as the great athlete that attempted very difficult triple-triples. If all she ever had planned was the same jump content as Michelle, would they have gone with Irina if they both landed the same jumps? IMO, without the triple-triples, the only thing she did better than Michelle was skater faster.

She was a far better spinner, too. And her jumps, had double the size of Michelle's. Sorry, but at their best I find Irina much more exciting to watch than Kwan IMO. Kwan didn't have any standout choreography after 98, and that was supposed to be her advantage over someone as "sloppy" as :irina1:

bartek
01-19-2011, 09:39 PM
She was a far better spinner, too. And her jumps, had double the size of Michelle's. Sorry, but at their best I find Irina much more exciting to watch than Kwan IMO. Kwan didn't have any standout choreography after 98, and that was supposed to be her advantage over someone as "sloppy" as :irina1:

Technically Irina was far superior to Kwan in their prime. Her jumps were way higher and more powerful and this was what built Irina's reputation as sensational jumper, beside her difficult triple-triples. She had some difficult transitions before some of her jumps too, e.g. before lutz and loop, or axel in SPs. Irina was also far better spinner, some of her 6.0 spins could be given higher level than 1 under CoP what is rare for 6.0 spins. Quality of her spins was better as well. Irina was also faster across the ice than Michelle. The only techinal thing which Michelle did better was spirals. Of course artistry is another issue but for me Irina's exuberance was her artistry.

judgejudy27
01-19-2011, 09:42 PM
Maybe. But her reputation could also have been hurt. She was probably helped by being known as the great athlete that attempted very difficult triple-triples. If all she ever had planned was the same jump content as Michelle, would they have gone with Irina if they both landed the same jumps? IMO, without the triple-triples, the only thing she did better than Michelle was skater faster.

It is difficult to say I guess. However at the peak of their rivalry in 2000-2002 Irina tended to be given higher technical marks than Kwan even when they landed similar (on occasion even less for Irina) jump content and/or made similar mistakes. Whether that was deserved or not is open for debate but that tended to be the case. So I think Irina could definitely outscore Kwan on the technical mark with just a triple toe-triple toe if that is what both did. Whether she would be able to win overall combined with the presentation mark with both doing the triple toe-triple toe is another issue.

I think at the 2000 Worlds even though Kwan's performance was amazing and should have been virtually unbeatable in the long program phase atleast, the judges were expecting to place Irina and Maria in the top 2 and Michelle 3rd (it was a very Eurocentric panel and Kwan didnt have the momentum at that point either). So if Irina had done the triple toe-triple toe only that year but skated cleanly she would have won for sure IMO. Well as long as Maria also didnt skate cleanly in the long program that is which of course she didnt.

At the 2001 Worlds I am not nearly as sure. I think that is a harder call to what the judges would have done. As someone else said if she had stayed the course after just landing the triple salchow-triple loop-double toe (a harder combination than Michelle's) she probably had a good chance though, but then she tried for even more and messed up her performance somewhat and lost.

El Rey
01-19-2011, 10:09 PM
How did Michelle and Irina skate at their first head to head during the 1999-2000 season? It seems like they both skated at Skate Canada and Irina won. Did Michelle skate badly? If that was one of Irina's first competition during her comeback year, and if they both skated well then that could probably tell us how the judges would have marked her without a reputation as the more technical athlete.

I say that IMO the only thing that Irina did better, without any debate, is that she was a faster skater.

They both had good ice coverage.
Irina was a faster spinner and had some interesting spins, but Michelle was not an inadequate spinner either and she had great positions. Irina had the Bielmann spins, but they tended to travel. Michelle was able to show off her flexibility with her Y-spin.

Irina had awesomely huge jumps, but she also tended to telegraph and come to a stand still on the landings. Michelle had beautiful landings and flow out her jumps.

Michelle had better spirals.

I think they both had equally difficult footwork.