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Seerek
12-21-2010, 08:13 PM
I'm assuming that the judges don't necessarily "know" with 100% certainty in real-time that the intended jumping pass was meant to be the triple (or quadruple) (presumably) out of steps until they see what the 2nd non-axel jumping pass in the short program ends up being. Only then can they figure out if the "+COMBO" omission needs to be applied and whether the "preceding" steps criteria was met.

Dragonlady
12-21-2010, 08:31 PM
I'm assuming that the judges don't necessarily "know" with 100% certainty in real-time that the intended jumping pass was meant to be the triple (or quadruple) (presumably) out of steps until they see what the 2nd non-axel jumping pass in the short program ends up being. Only then can they figure out if the "+COMBO" omission needs to be applied and whether the "preceding" steps criteria was met.

Yeah I think they do "know" because I understand that the skaters are required to submit a list of elements now.

alilou
12-21-2010, 09:41 PM
Although I should have stated more clearly when I was referring to SP (re: required combo) and LP (+SEQ), I was already well aware of these rules and did not require any length explanation of same, although readers to this thread may have been confused by my failure to specify which program I was referring to.

I just thought gkelly was adding to your explanation so Japanfan would understand :confused:

Aussie Willy
12-21-2010, 09:44 PM
I'm assuming that the judges don't necessarily "know" with 100% certainty in real-time that the intended jumping pass was meant to be the triple (or quadruple) (presumably) out of steps until they see what the 2nd non-axel jumping pass in the short program ends up being. Only then can they figure out if the "+COMBO" omission needs to be applied and whether the "preceding" steps criteria was met.
All skaters are required to submit a Planned Program Content (PPC) at the time of entering the event (or are meant to submit it). The elements get manually entered into the ISUCalc program before the event (I did them all for our National Championships a few weeks ago and it took hours - arghhhhh!!!).

The judging sheets are then printed for all the judges and technical panel and they list all the elements that the skater has submitted on their PPC.

Doesn't mean that is what the skater actually does as the tech panel and judges evaluate the element as done, but you get a good idea of what they plan to do.

Also the +COMBO part doesn't need to be data entered anymore as you can tell if there are two jumps for that element that it is a combination, but the +SEQ does get used.

Rock2
12-21-2010, 10:07 PM
There are heaps of examples of break in choreo and steps before solo triple, especially among the ladies. Some of the better executions tended to be in 3Ls (Slutskaya, Ruh, Kostner/2005) while some of the fails have been on lutzes (Kostner 2007sp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XX1kxQLMsw&feature=fvw)

Seerek
12-21-2010, 10:12 PM
All skaters are required to submit a Planned Program Content (PPC) at the time of entering the event (or are meant to submit it). The elements get manually entered into the ISUCalc program before the event (I did them all for our National Championships a few weeks ago and it took hours - arghhhhh!!!).

The judging sheets are then printed for all the judges and technical panel and they list all the elements that the skater has submitted on their PPC.

Doesn't mean that is what the skater actually does as the tech panel and judges evaluate the element as done, but you get a good idea of what they plan to do.

Also the +COMBO part doesn't need to be data entered anymore as you can tell if there are two jumps for that element that it is a combination, but the +SEQ does get used.

Yes you're right, thanks for reminding me. I should have already known this because the technical sheets were fully disclosed for the Olympics.

I thought +COMBO was still used in instances where a combination should have been completed in that instance (either SP or Zayak rule), but was omitted.

gkelly
12-21-2010, 10:18 PM
I thought +COMBO was still used in instances where a combination should have been completed in that instance (either SP or Zayak rule), but was omitted.

+COMBO in short programs

+SEQ in long programs for repeats (Zayak violations), which produces the additional penalty of the jump only getting 80% of its base value, in addition to any -GOE and using up a combo/sequence slot.

I think that changed a few years ago.

Aussie Willy
12-21-2010, 11:10 PM
Yes you're right, thanks for reminding me. I should have already known this because the technical sheets were fully disclosed for the Olympics.

I thought +COMBO was still used in instances where a combination should have been completed in that instance (either SP or Zayak rule), but was omitted.
That is correct. Here is an example from the Senior Ladies SP at Aust Nats (scroll down to see the combo with the missing second jump).

http://www.isa.org.au/Results/2010_AFSC/AFSC2010_SeniorLadies_SP_Scores.pdf