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View Full Version : Jean Senft's Book "Triumph on Ice: The New World of Figure skating"



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Anya
12-23-2010, 04:53 PM
Well it didn't happen so I guess we'll never know. But I hasten to add that Canadians had been warned prior to the Olympics that B&K would be placed 5th in the Golden Waltz so that they would have no shot at the podium regardless of where they placed in the other segments. That was all over the news PRIOR to the games even starting. CTV, Skate Canada and I think many fans thought that if they publically outed the plan, they wouldn't have the audacity go through with it.

As if it do not happen every time, before every Games. Dozens of 'fix is in' theories are floating around, mentioning everyone with the most remote chances to medal; each of them, of course, come from the most reliable :sekret: and national media always :barrel pick up the story, which puts their skaters at most disadvantage, because it is no-loose scenario for them. If their skaters indeed place as low as was "predicted", well, they have told you so. If they did not, it is even better, because it allows them to speak at length about how the disaster/injustice was averted and how even those evil judges could not deny "our boy/girl/guys" their due.

Dragonlady
12-23-2010, 04:58 PM
As if it do not happen every time, before every Games. Dozens of 'fix is in' theories are floating around, mentioning everyone with the most remote chances to medal; each of them, of course, come from the most reliable :sekret: and national media always :barrel pick up the story, which puts their skaters at most disadvantage, because it is no-loose scenario for them.

Except in this case, the fix really was in and it did happen, exactly the way they said it would. And the press in Canada didn't start floating rumours. They had some very solid and reliable information upon which they based these reports. So you can't really dismiss this incident as "it's just the usual rumours and gossip".

There was also an ISU investigation (it is so hard to put ISU and investigation side by side without :rofl: given their propensity for conducting investigations without talking to anyone), and it was determined that block judging did happen in Nagano which was a big admission for them.

So you can't really dismiss this as the usual gossip.

withrespect
12-23-2010, 08:10 PM
:watch:

gkelly
12-23-2010, 08:31 PM
Sorry to bring up Tara vs. Michelle in this thread again, but did Tara really win because of the triple/triple? I know Michelle's skating was generally a lot better than Tara's, but I vaguely remember one of the issues being that Michelle skated less free and more tentative than usual (certainly compared to her nationals performance), and Tara didn't. I thought there was more to it than one jump? I'm fine with being wrong, as I wish Michelle HAD won when I look back.

Well, we can't know for sure unless the six judges who put Tara first in the LP choose to come forward and discuss their reasoning.

I can watch the programs and come up with several areas where Tara was better, in 6.0 terms (jump difficulty and speed being the most obvious and important), as well as several where Michelle was better.

But which of those criteria each judge put the most weight on to come up with their rankings, we can't know unless they tell us. And ISU culture has never encouraged judges to share their reasoning with the public.

With IJS, the weighting of many of those factors is built into the system. Or not. And some of those structural weightings change with various rule changes each year. E.g., by last year's rules, two or three spirals, held for at least 3 seconds each, were necessary to consistitute a long program spiral sequence; this year a single spiral held for 6 seconds will meet the ChSp requirement.

There's no built-in advantage under IJS to doing a 3-3 combination, whereas there was a perceived psychological advantage that judges would take that difficulty into account under 6.0.

There is, now, no longer a penalty for doing 3-half loop-3 sequence or combo, whatever you want to call it. So the new value for that element would gain Tara back a couple of points that she would have lost with calculations under previous years' rules.

Similarly, moderate underrotations (91-179 degrees) are now moderately punished, as opposed to the more severe downgrade penalty of previous IJS seasons.

We can make good guesses about how the tech panel would have called those programs by applying IJS rules to the programs as skated. And we can also make reasonably good guesses about the likely GOEs. But the specific year's rules that we use might have a significant effect on the TES for each skater.

We'll never know how judges would have scored the PCS for those performances under IJS. We can only guess or give our own opinions on how we think they should score.

IceAlisa
12-23-2010, 09:00 PM
If I can order from amazon.uk, I should be able to order from amazon.ca, innit. ;)

kwanette
12-23-2010, 10:55 PM
Sorry to bring up Tara vs. Michelle in this thread again, but did Tara really win because of the triple/triple? I know Michelle's skating was generally a lot better than Tara's, but I vaguely remember one of the issues being that Michelle skated less free and more tentative than usual (certainly compared to her nationals performance),

Why would MK's Nationals performance have anything to do with the Olympics. Why should she have been compared/contrasted with herself?

That "tentative myth" came out of Verne Lundquist's mouth after Tara skated. They were "ah ga googooing" over MK and never mentioned tentative(after MK's performance) until after Tara had skated.

AJ Skatefan
12-24-2010, 02:15 AM
That "tentative myth" came out of Verne Lundquist's mouth after Tara skated. They were "ah ga googooing" over MK and never mentioned tentative(after MK's performance) until after Tara had skated.

.....yet another urban legend

Seerek
12-24-2010, 02:41 AM
If we do a CoP judging analysis of Tara vs. Michelle, do we have to eliminate Michelle's actual 8th jumping pass, or just deduct the non-axel jumping pass with the lowest base value?

gkelly
12-24-2010, 03:24 AM
That's always the difficulty with "retrojudging" events by IJS that were designed for different rules. Which year's IJS rules do you use? Which rules do you change or ignore to account for differences in program construction under different or nonexistent well-balanced program rules?

Especially in close contests, which rules and adaptations of rules you choose to use can make a significant difference.

LynnW
12-24-2010, 03:32 AM
Which year's IJS rules do you use?

The rules of the year that allows your favorite to win? :saint:

Coco
12-24-2010, 04:29 AM
If we do a CoP judging analysis of Tara vs. Michelle, do we have to eliminate Michelle's actual 8th jumping pass, or just deduct the non-axel jumping pass with the lowest base value?

Thanks for bringing that UP!

Also, we'd have to ADD ANOTHER 2a for Tara, since she accomplished 7 triples plus a 2a in only 6 jumping passes.

As for tentative, I think in technical terms that can be translated to ice coverage.

escaflowne9282
12-24-2010, 06:08 AM
Except in this case, the fix really was in and it did happen, exactly the way they said it would. And the press in Canada didn't start floating rumours. They had some very solid and reliable information upon which they based these reports. So you can't really dismiss this incident as "it's just the usual rumours and gossip".

There was also an ISU investigation (it is so hard to put ISU and investigation side by side without :rofl: given their propensity for conducting investigations without talking to anyone), and it was determined that block judging did happen in Nagano which was a big admission for them.

So you can't really dismiss this as the usual gossip.

The problem here is that the widely alleged block against B&K really had nothing to do with anything Senft or Balkov were discussing nor with why both judges were (IMHO deservedly) suspended for two years . Neither judge voted in line with the alleged block of judges nor was either judge really considered to be part of the block at any point.

There very well may have been a conspiracy against B&K, but that is irrelevant to Jean Senft and Yuri Balkov's situation. I will never get how so many see her as such a martyr.

Japanfan
12-24-2010, 10:43 AM
The protest in Vancouver wasn't because B&K didn't get a medal. It was because D&V didn't get a medal.

For sure there were some who felt B&K were held down, but at 2001 Worlds the protest was generally against protocol judging. There was no movement in the standings during the three parts of the ice dance competition IIRC. Add to that outrage about D&V, a more beloved team in Canada than B&K, and outrage about the Italians winning as well.

Dragonlady
12-24-2010, 04:09 PM
Yes, and Yuri Balkov of all people, being parachuted in at the last minute as a judge. The judge he replaced was sent home with no reason or explanation given. It's significant to note that Balkov placed the Italians first and the Russians third.

Seerek
12-24-2010, 04:37 PM
There was also the whole brouhaha earlier in the season at the 1997 NHK Trophy with some strange block ordinals in the dance event... does anyone have the details on that situation?