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View Full Version : Jean Senft's Book "Triumph on Ice: The New World of Figure skating"



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Japanfan
12-22-2010, 11:54 PM
:lol: My "what's this 'public library' you speak of?" was just poking fun that some of us, especially the young'ns, have never been to a public library. It's a nice old-fashioned institution that's kind've gone the way of milk deliveries.

Not quite. The collection of my city's public library system must number in the billions. And I see plenty of young people and children in the library.

judgejudy27
12-23-2010, 12:04 AM
IMO Daisuke should have won :saint:

I agree. In a fair World Daisuke would have won by over 10 points.

judgejudy27
12-23-2010, 12:05 AM
Plushenko had good levels in his spins and steps as well, he didnt just do a quad and left the arena, how many times would I read this? Watch his levels first. Lysacek was just better there in those elements. Yes his elements were great but warhorse music beats were on the right and he was on the left. And there is always an SP in competition as well, where Dai should have lead and Lysacek shouldnt have been even close.Does the book say in detail the sp? that both Lysacek and Plushenko were getting massive pcs in(each one in different departments) and if we wanna be openmind Dai should have won overall cause he delivered two great performances apart from the fall on the quad? Lysacek didnt have any call in the axels and Dai had edges call all over. It is not the great strategy and training that Lysacek won(like the others were just sitting on a couch instead of training) it is that the rest didnt deliver. In my opinion of course, it was not a CoP masterpiece a la Buttle at Worlds 2008 program.

I agree with all that.

caseyedwards
12-23-2010, 12:52 AM
Amazon.ca has a function where you can search the entire book but only a few pages can be read. If you search like Plushenko or Takahashi you get part of the sentence but can't access the page.

vodkashot
12-23-2010, 03:31 AM
Plushenko had good levels in his spins and steps as well, he didnt just do a quad and left the arena, how many times would I read this? Watch his levels first. Lysacek was just better there in those elements. Yes his elements were great but warhorse music beats were on the right and he was on the left. And there is always an SP in competition as well, where Dai should have lead and Lysacek shouldnt have been even close.Does the book say in detail the sp? that both Lysacek and Plushenko were getting massive pcs in(each one in different departments) and if we wanna be openmind Dai should have won overall cause he delivered two great performances apart from the fall on the quad? Lysacek didnt have any call in the axels and Dai had edges call all over. It is not the great strategy and training that Lysacek won(like the others were just sitting on a couch instead of training) it is that the rest didnt deliver. In my opinion of course, it was not a CoP masterpiece a la Buttle at Worlds 2008 program.

If this was Facebook, I would "Like" this post so hard. :cheer:

cruisin
12-23-2010, 03:21 PM
The Lysecek/Plushenko issue is almost the exact situation that happened with Kwan/Lipinski, but with different results. Yes, Lipinski did the tripple/tripple and Kwan did not. However, eveything Kwan did, she did better than Lipinski. Kwan's jumps were higher, better rotated, her spins, spirals, skating were better. So, based on that result, it's understandable that Plushenko's quad would have been expected to be the deciding factor.

But, then we have the deals: If country X gets this GM, then country Y gets, this GM, and country Z gets.... We can pretend it doesn't happen, but it does. What goes on in the judges rooms is dealing, negotiating. Even before the event, the lobbying starts. Judges who are not even on panels (and don't belong there) go into the judges rooms.

OliviaPug
12-23-2010, 03:29 PM
It is not just one jump. It is one jump plus 7 others and steps and spins and stuff. In terms of EVERYTHING a skater has to do I was more impressed with Plushenko.

Why?

O-

Dragonlady
12-23-2010, 03:29 PM
The Lysecek/Plushenko issue is almost the exact situation that happened with Kwan/Lipinski, but with different results. Yes, Lipinski did the tripple/tripple and Kwan did not. However, eveything Kwan did, she did better than Lipinski. Kwan's jumps were higher, better rotated, her spins, spirals, skating were better. So, based on that result, it's understandable that Plushenko's quad would have been expected to be the deciding factor.

Some overly obsessed friends with too much time on their hands have scored the 1998 programs under CoP and Michelle wins by a wide margin. Every time.

allezfred
12-23-2010, 03:31 PM
Jean Senft was given the Order of Canada (Canada's highest honour) by the Governor General of Canada because of her courage in speaking out.

If Bourne & Kraatz had been awarded a medal in Nagano, would she have spoken out at all though?

cruisin
12-23-2010, 03:41 PM
Some overly obsessed friends with too much time on their hands have scored the 1998 programs under CoP and Michelle wins by a wide margin. Every time.

I haven't done that :lol:. I thought, in '98, that Kwan should have won. I've never thought that one element should decide the outcome. Kwan (in my opinion) outskated Lipinski, with the exception of one jump combination. But, you are right, that CoP is different. Of course there is always the "unnamed human factor" ;).


If Bourne & Kraatz had been awarded a medal in Nagano, would she have spoken out at all though?

Doubtful.

Mathman
12-23-2010, 04:03 PM
My recollection on the details of this incident is fading. But as I recall the response of David Dore and the Canadian Federation was to pass a "code of ethics" declaring it wicked to blow the whistle in public on cheating judges.

Dragonlady
12-23-2010, 04:09 PM
If Bourne & Kraatz had been awarded a medal in Nagano, would she have spoken out at all though?

Well it didn't happen so I guess we'll never know. But I hasten to add that Canadians had been warned prior to the Olympics that B&K would be placed 5th in the Golden Waltz so that they would have no shot at the podium regardless of where they placed in the other segments. That was all over the news PRIOR to the games even starting. CTV, Skate Canada and I think many fans thought that if they publically outed the plan, they wouldn't have the audacity go through with it.

Everyone always assumes that it was all about B&K and that wasn't the case at all. It was disgusting that the skaters, who had worked hard all of their lives, were awarded medals by shadowy men in back rooms having nothing to do with the competition on the ice. The protest in Vancouver wasn't because B&K didn't get a medal. It was because D&V didn't get a medal.

allezfred
12-23-2010, 04:17 PM
The protest in Vancouver wasn't because B&K didn't get a medal. It was because D&V didn't get a medal.

Don't know how we got to Vancouver Worlds 2001, but I was there and I distinctly remember on the way to the venue the buzz being all about there being a protest if Bourne & Kraatz didn't medal.

As if the general public in Canada would give a flying feck about what happened to some Lithuanians. :rofl:

Allen
12-23-2010, 04:21 PM
Well it didn't happen so I guess we'll never know. But I hasten to add that Canadians had been warned prior to the Olympics that B&K would be placed 5th in the Golden Waltz so that they would have no shot at the podium regardless of where they placed in the other segments. That was all over the news PRIOR to the games even starting. CTV, Skate Canada and I think many fans thought that if they publically outed the plan, they wouldn't have the audacity go through with it.


I remember buying into the hype at the time. However, I now think B&K deserved the 5th place finish in the Golden Waltz. I have to say that I think the judges got it right in the GW and definitely in the OD. B&K's OD was exceptionally weak. The free dance could go either way for me. A&P had that section at the beginning done kneeling on the ice and B&K did mostly side by side skating. I remember being horrified at the result at the time, but now I understand parts or it. Does that mean a backroom deal didn't take place? No, but I don't think all of the parts of the competition were judged incorrectly either.

Andora
12-23-2010, 04:31 PM
Sorry to bring up Tara vs. Michelle in this thread again, but did Tara really win because of the triple/triple? I know Michelle's skating was generally a lot better than Tara's, but I vaguely remember one of the issues being that Michelle skated less free and more tentative than usual (certainly compared to her nationals performance), and Tara didn't. I thought there was more to it than one jump? I'm fine with being wrong, as I wish Michelle HAD won when I look back.

I'm not sure what to think of Jean Senft. :shuffle: I remember the whole "B&K WILL BE ROBBED!!!" news all over before the olympics, and being outraged at 16, even if I loved A&P's programs that year. But a couple years later I learned she did vote the way she was "suggested" to, and that seemed kinda shady...