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gkelly
12-15-2010, 08:45 PM
I guess the question is whether, in those first two years post-figures, judges would have given more weight to total number of triples landed (and how many Kerrigan and Trenary each would have landed) or most difficult triples (Kerrigan had lutz and loop, Trenary did not), or whether things like edge quality and musicality as reflected in the second mark would have given Trenary an advantage.

Certainly if she could have skated her best she could have been competitive. Much would depend who happened to have a good day at 91 and 92 Nationals.

bardtoob
12-15-2010, 09:24 PM
She was 2nd in the LP so obviously she was competitive. She beat Yamaguchi who would go on to win the 91 Worlds, 92 Olympics, and 92 Worlds. I am not saying she would have beaten Yamaguchi at any of those events, I highly doubt it in fact. However I think she could have beaten Kerrigan at any of them, and Kerrigan medaled at each. Actually Kerrigan might have not even made a World team until 1993 if Trenary had stayed in.

Yamaguchi went splat at 1990 Worlds. Had Yamaguchi not fallen apart at Worlds, then it would have helped Midori to the World title.

It is interesting that you have left out Tonya Harding in your commentary.

orbitz
12-15-2010, 09:56 PM
Jill won Worlds in 1990 primarily because of figures. She had a miserable SP and did not win the LP.

I don't think you have to win either the SP or LP to be considered a good freeskater. Mao won both of her World titles without winning either the OP or the LP and most people aren't going to call her a lousy freestylist.

It's kind of sad to see so many people degrade Jill's quality as a skater. She was a good free skater for her era and was definitely no Kira Invanova in term of being only good in the figures, for example. I don't think you can really label any U.S. National champion as being a poor freeskater.

bardtoob
12-15-2010, 10:02 PM
1. Are you serious, comparing Jill Trenary under the 6.0 with figures to Mao under the IJS. That is Apples to Pumpkins.

2. I think Jill was a fine complete package skater pre-fall 1991

3. I like Kira Ivanova's freeskating.

miki88
12-15-2010, 10:22 PM
I don't think you have to win either the SP or LP to be considered a good freeskater. Mao won both of her World titles without winning either the OP or the LP and most people aren't going to call her a lousy freestylist.It's kind of sad to see so many people degrade Jill's quality as a skater. She was a good free skater for her era and was definitely no Kira Invanova in term of being only good in the figures, for example. I don't think you can really label any U.S. National champion as being a poor freeskater.

Well, it's was really debatable both times. I thought she should have won the SP in 2008 (still can't get over Kostner at that competition) and the LP in 2010.

Mafke
12-15-2010, 10:59 PM
1. Are you serious, comparing Jill Trenary under the 6.0 with figures to Mao under the IJS. That is Apples to Pumpkins.
2. I think Jill was a fine complete package skater pre-fall 1991
3. I like Kira Ivanova's freeskating.


1. I agree.

2. Yes, she was. she was also one of many female skaters who invested years of training for one sport (where quality figures mattered and thre different triples were enough) only to have the ground rules change under her skates (literally) into another very different sport when it was effectively too late for her to adapt. Leaving aside injuries she was on the old side to be learning new triples. Had she managed to come back she might have taken Kerrigan's place as third US lady in 1991-92 (whether she would have been satisfied with that is another question). Kerrigan had more triples on paper but she wasn't exactly miss consistent (though neither was Jill) but the judges did like Trenary's free skating basics probably better than Kerrigan's at that time.

3. So do I.

Extranjera
12-16-2010, 08:28 AM
"Has any reigning champion just plain failed to qualify for Worlds? "

apparently no ;)

briancoogaert
12-16-2010, 10:12 AM
"Has any reigning champion just plain failed to qualify for Worlds? "

apparently no ;)
Good summary !
Anyway, I'm happy because due to this thread, I've rewatched some of Jill Trenary's performances. Not that bad !

essence_of_soy
12-16-2010, 11:59 AM
This was the first big international competition skated without the benefit of compulsory figures. Interestingly, Jill won the short ahead of Kerrigan (2nd), Yamaguchi (3rd) and Bonaly (4th). Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAaKyxPorPQ) is her short program.

Other competitors included Karen Preston, Natalia Lebedeva, and Margot Bion. Tonya Harding did not compete and in fact had been beaten by Kerrigan several weeks prior at the U.S. Sports Festival. Midori Ito did not compete, either.

In the free Jill placed second and won the silver overall behind Yamaguchi, who placed first in the free. Kerrigan tanked and finished out of the medals behind Bonaly who was fourth in the free but third overall.

Jill skated well, with a step - out on the triple flip and a touch down on her trademark one foot axel / triple salchow. Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjFZlIudZk8&feature=related) is her free skate. Yamaguchi, from memory, landed five triples, but fell on a sixth, a solo triple toe loop.

On this basis, I guess Jill could still have been competitive in the post - compulsory era.

bardtoob
12-16-2010, 07:46 PM
I thought the 1990 Goodwill Games were in the Spring of 1990, during the figures era.

Mafke
12-16-2010, 07:49 PM
I thought the 1990 Goodwill Games were in the Spring of 1990, during the figures era.

But I'm pretty sure there was no figures part of the competition there.

bardtoob
12-16-2010, 07:57 PM
The 1990 Goodwill Games were in July of 1990. Top ranked skaters went, and all the rankings were still based on the figures era competitions.

Of course, it makes sense that Yamaguchi, a World Championship qualifier that never was in contention after figures, won.

nylynnr
12-16-2010, 09:51 PM
I love historical questions, they help me exercise my sometimes faulty memory. Vladimir Kovalev, the Soviet who won worlds in 1979, didn't just plain not qualify for worlds the following season, but in the eyes of Soviet skating officials, he didn't qualify. After he placed fifth in the compulsories at the 1980 Olympics, he withdrew, and never competed again, so he was unable to try to defend his title at the 1980 worlds. BTW, if memory serves, he did not compete at the Soviet championships in 1979.

essence_of_soy
12-16-2010, 10:22 PM
I love historical questions, they help me exercise my sometimes faulty memory. Vladimir Kovalev, the Soviet who won worlds in 1979, didn't just plain not qualify for worlds the following season, but in the eyes of Soviet skating officials, he didn't qualify. After he placed fifth in the compulsories at the 1980 Olympics, he withdrew, and never competed again, so he was unable to try to defend his title at the 1980 worlds. BTW, if memory serves, he did not compete at the Soviet championships in 1979.

Interesting.

Annette Poetszch was named to the 1981 world team, but was withdrawn from both the European and World Championships due to injury.

As the defending champion, the East German association would qualify 3 skaters to both competitions. At that time, named skaters in the top 5 from the previous season, could pre-qualify should their association choose to send them.

bardtoob
12-17-2010, 05:42 AM
Jill Trenary Profile/Interview- 1992 Albertville, Figure Skating (Secondary Broadcast Feed) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li8oaM8lOF0)

Jill states she did not feel she could compete with the other girls on a technical level. She wanted the number of triples to be limited to four.

I wish she got a chance to talk about the elimination of compulsory figures, but they moved on to discussing the men's competition.