PDA

View Full Version : Gifts to Chan keep American men out of GPF



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 12 13 14

Triple Butz
12-09-2010, 05:52 AM
:rollin:

:watch:

And instead of correcting her errors or apologizing she just neg-repped me lol. So mature.

If you're going to start correcting other posts, at least make sure you know what you're talking about and double check the facts before you go spouting off. Even so, we all make mistakes and it's okay to say "Sorry, I was mistaken."

vodkashot
12-09-2010, 08:38 AM
Underscored: Tomas Verner, Takahiko Kozuka (improving this season), Nobunari Oda (ditto), pretty much any young Japanese singles skater in international competition who hasn't made a reputation for themselves and isn't named Daisuke
Overscored: Brian Joubert (or he was, we'll see what happens if he shows up to Euros/Worlds, I think he's in the process of being dumped by the judges), Samuel Contesti

Those are the big examples, but there are a lot. PCS is mostly scored on reputation, anyway, not broken down by each component based on what happens on the ice, the way it's supposed to be. There's not really much individuation between the different categories, even if there are clear areas of excellence and/or deficiency. Patrick's SS scores are one of the rare exceptions, and damn well deserved.

ITA about Kozuka. It killed me to see skaters like Lysacek get 8s (!!) in SS during the Olympics while Kozuka with his beautiful basics was given 7s.

vodkashot
12-09-2010, 08:56 AM
Chan has never "pooh-poohed" skaters who could land quads and has always stated that it was his goal to have a quad.

Well....


Chan said that "anyone can do the quad," insisting the jump gets too much attention and distracts from the true artistry of the sport.

"With the quad, you really have to take out a lot," Chan said, "because you've got to really concentrate on having a good set-up."

From: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10456956-56.html

(plus about a million other articles)

Look, I think Patrick's a great skater and absolutely entertaining as a person but it's been pretty clear that he did a more or less complete about-face about quads after he started to land them in competition this season.

Artifice
12-09-2010, 09:15 AM
I think the problem is more that Chan actually gets no deduction in the components scores when he spends time cleaning the ice with his butt. That's the real problem IMO. Whatever he does his PCS remain the same, clean skate or not, and this is a real problem. Because a fall, other than being penalized on the technical score and minus the 1 deduction point, also disturbs the harmony of the program, kills the transition part and remove any possibility to connect to the music for several seconds.
So the PCS should reflect the fact that there were some interruption in the program. This is how it works with most of the skaters, but not him, it's unfair.

It's like judges were so impressed with Chan's skating skills (rightfully probably) that they just "forget" to penalize him when thing are not up to his level.
But judges could deduct some points in his PCS and still give him high marks. What they do is just ignoring a part of the rules in order to keep Chan's scores as high as when he stays on his feet. Not right.

kwanfan1818
12-09-2010, 09:40 AM
Completely agree.

...so, let's say someone (like, a real life troll) participating in a competition did a few perfect crossovers, steps and turns across the rink for about 20 seconds...then sat down, and spent the rest of the time literally on their butt. No jumps, no spins, no attempt to interpret the music, no choreo, nada. Is it still appropriate to give them a 10.0 in Skating Skills?

Well, my answer is no.


20 seconds of a 160 to 170-second program is ~12-12.5% of the program. It would not warrant a 1 in Skating Skills by the criteria in which the bullet pointed descriptions must be fulfilled by percentage of the program. I'm not quite sure what your point is.

Japanfan
12-09-2010, 11:50 AM
I think the problem is more that Chan actually gets no deduction in the components scores when he spends time cleaning the ice with his butt. That's the real problem IMO. Whatever he does his PCS remain the same, clean skate or not, and this is a real problem. . . .
But judges could deduct some points in his PCS and still give him high marks. What they do is just ignoring a part of the rules in order to keep Chan's scores as high as when he stays on his feet. Not right.

Couldn't this same comment have been made about Lambiel on occasion and others - for example Yunah at Worlds? What about Sasha's two-mistake advantage?

Seems to me that most on this board had no issue with Lambiel scoring well when he cleaned the ice with his butt. Or had sub-par jumpinquality, which was common. And Sasha was just glorious Sasha, with or without the mistakes. . .

Artifice
12-09-2010, 12:01 PM
Couldn't this same comment have been made about Lambiel on occasion and others - for example Yunah at Worlds? What about Sasha's two-mistake advantage?

Seems to me that most on this board had no issue with Lambiel scoring well when he cleaned the ice with his butt. Or had sub-par jumpinquality, which was common. And Sasha was just glorious Sasha, with or without the mistakes. . .

Lambiel and Cohen didn't receive too high marks when they weren't clean. Chan does, his PCS don't reflect his actual performance. Cohen never won with a splat fest, nor did Lambiel, on the contrary Chan does, that is the problem.
Besides, the problem is not to score high, I have no problem with Chan scoring high in components even with falls, there is a problem with him scoring as high as he does wether he falls 4 times or not. That was not the case for Cohen and Lambiel. And if it was the case one would have react the same as we do now.

let`s talk
12-09-2010, 01:22 PM
Last year, he was pooh-poohing skaters who could land quads and lauded himself for his transitions. Then he did a 180 degree turnabout and decided he needed a quad. Now he thinks he is viewed as a skater "who can jump quads".


There should be a term for such behaviour changings somewhere. :COP:

let`s talk
12-09-2010, 01:26 PM
Another example of Dragonlady blasting another poster without actually looking up the facts herself...color me surprised.

:lol:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

judgejudy27
12-09-2010, 01:29 PM
Can you please enhance my learning of the sport by telling me precisely what he got credit for that he didn't do? Or this this purely an uninformed opinion based on who you like and don't like?

Please answer with reference to CoP e.g. Patrick did X. CoP says that is worth Y points but he got Y+3 points so he was overscored. I'd like to understand the exact mistakes the judges made.

Thanks

He is overscored in jump GOE (a huge amount even on days his jumps are shaky), spin GOE, and overscored alot for interpretation and performance. One would think he had the jumps of Oda, the spins of Lambiel, and the performing ability and musicality of Takahashi and Lambiel, neither which is true even on a good day. And when he falls, which is the main topic here, he then becomes overscored in skating skills and transitions both which become badly married, in adidtion to even more overscored in interpretation and performance than he already is.

On top of that the whole system is wrong in many ways and there should be bigger deductions for multiple falls in the first place, which would hurt "skate on my ass" Chan more than anyone else.

judgejudy27
12-09-2010, 01:32 PM
That's a good question. I think it really would depend on how behind he was after the short. However, the judges have been known to spontaneously boost a skater's pcs after a great skate in a big event. If Abbott skated lights out, I wouldn't be surprised to see many of the judges apply that boost just to ensure a victory. Just look at the ladies competition where so many skaters received personal best scores. The other possibility is that the judges may have spent their PCS boost on Abbott instead of Lysacek, making Plushenko the overall winner.

Good point.


Speaking of the men's sp in Vancouver, does anyone else think Takahashi should have won the short with a huge lead in PCS?

Yes, for sure!! I still think in many ways Takahashi was screwed by the Vancouver judging.

judgejudy27
12-09-2010, 01:44 PM
What about Sasha's two-mistake advantage?

A total myth. Sasha most times couldnt even beat a clean Kwan or a clean Slutskaya skating cleanly herself. She was never seen as having a two mistake on advantage on anyone other than maybe Fumie Suguri. Lets look at Sasha's career:

2002 Nationals- skates cleanly and loses decisively to Kwan

2002 Olympics- has 1 fall in her long program, is otherwise perfect, and finishes distant 4th behind Sarah Hughes, subpar Slutskaya, and Kwan with a fall herself.

2003 Cup of Russia- skates cleanly and loses to Volchkova.

2003 Grand Prix final- pops one jump and wins over Slutskaya who pops two and two foots another.

2003 Worlds- skates clean in qualifying round and is placed 3rd behind Kwan and Sokolova (who does a triple-triple). With one fall in short is placed 5th. With two falls in long and same triple lutz-triple toe as the jumps only Sokolova is placed 3rd in long behind Kwan and Sokolova, ahead of Suguri who singles and stumbles out of two different jumps.

2004 Nationals- has one fall and one two foot and loses decisively to Kwan who skates cleanly.

2004 Worlds- has one stumble and some other shaky landings in long program and drops to 2nd after placing 3rd in LP.

2005 Worlds- stays on her feet in both programs with only minor mistakes and loses decisively to Slutskaya who botches 2 elements in short program and has a triple discounted in long.

2005 Eric Bompard- has one fall and loses to teenaged Asada who botches her last spin.

2006 Olympics- has one fall, a second virtual fall, still lands 5 triples successfully, and loses gold by 8 points to 5 triple Arakawa, barely winning silver over Slutskaya with a disaester.

2006 Worlds- ok a mess but the field was weak, and a so so Suguri still won silver over her.


Sasha in no way is the Chan of the womens division to the judges. Maybe the judges like her but not excessively so. If anything she is unlucky, she never seemed to get the breaks of being able to win with anything other than perfect performance (and those were hard to come by for her in the long program admitedly).




Seems to me that most on this board had no issue with Lambiel scoring well when he cleaned the ice with his butt. Or had sub-par jumpinquality, which was common. And Sasha was just glorious Sasha, with or without the mistakes. . .

Lambiel is also in no way a Patrick Chan in the judges eyes, and never was. The judges wouldnt even neccessarily put him over Plushenko, Takahashi, Joubert, or even Lysacek with mutual clean performances, let alone with many falls.

2004 Worlds- skated a clean long program with 2 quads, amazing spins, amazing artistry, and still was placed only 4th in the LP behind Plushenko, Joubert, and Lindemann.

2006 Europeans- made similar mistakes to Plushenko and ended up way behind.

2006 Olympics- wasnt getting the scores to come close to Plushenko even had he gone clean. And with one fall and one stumble but a successful quad-triple and a rotated 2nd quad (which he stumbled on) lost the LP portion to Buttle who fell on his only quad attempt, put his hand down on a triple axel, and doubled a triple loop, and to Lysacek who didnt attempt a quad.

2006 Worlds- skated an almost clean LP with one two footed jump and won the LP by 0.11 only over Joubert, and would have lost the overall gold without the Q round.

2008 GP final- OK his win over Takahashi here was controversial to some, yet in the SP he skated cleanly with a quad-triple and one shaky landing, and still lost to Takahashi who did a triple-triple combo.

2008 Worlds- made some mistakes and came 5th behind Takahashi who also had alot of mistakes.

ltnskater
12-09-2010, 02:30 PM
Oh for feck's sake, the degree of nitpicking you're engaging in is ridiculous. My point was perfectly clear, if you know the rules so well. Let me break it down:

- One of the bullets for determining positive GOE on jumps is "difficult or unexpected entry".
- Not all transitions that come before jumps should count as "difficult entries".
- Any transitional move where the skater jumps directly out of the move without changing edge should count as a "difficult entry", and be rewarded with a positive GOE bullet as well as the TR score.
- Not every "difficult entry" has to come directly out of the preceding MITF. There's a pretty obvious difference between doing a layback ina bauer five seconds before a double axel, doing a double axel straight out of it, and what Mirai Nagasu does in her SP this season. The first one should one count under TR only, the second two should get the GOE bullet.
- Not every pre-jump transitional move Patrick Chan does is something that deserves credit as a "difficult entry".
- Often the judges will give him high GOE on the jumps he does that are not his best
- The bullet for "difficult entry" is does not always explain the high GOE he gets, compared to skaters in the same competition who jump as well or better. Sometimes his pre-jump transitions don't deserve the bullet point. Sometimes they do, and it seems that he gets credit for it, while other skaters don't.

It seems like you are overestimating your own knowledge of the rules and starting to make up definitions based on your own opinion...

You have just contradicted yourself again. First when responding to my original post about the Walley into triple lutz, you say you do count that as INTO the jump, which SHOULD deserve + GOE...

Now from your new definition (being what I have bolded from your quote) of a transition INTO jump, this definition of a transition that should result in + GOE means that the walley into the lutz is not a transition and therefore should not garner + GOE.

See your mistake? You cannot decide whether or not the walley into the triple lutz should count as a difficult transition which deserves + GOE for the jump.

By the way... your definition of a difficult entry needing to be a transitional move without changing edge is actually WRONG, which is actually one of the reasons you are contradicting yourself because the definition is too specific, but more on that later.

Now look at the second line I bolded from your post, you say not every pre-jump transitional move deserves credit as a "difficult entry", I'm saying many (not all) pre-jump transitional moves that Patrick Chan does even when NEAR the jumps STILL MAKE THE JUMP MORE DIFFICULT and DO DESERVE THOSE + GOEs. This was my original and main point I am trying to get across.

This is because your DEFINITION of a difficult entry to garner + GOE is WRONG. You made the whole definition up...here is the ACTUAL definition from ISU)...and bear in mind, these are still only guidelines, not strict rules the judges have to follow...

"Unexpected/creative/difficult entry" - no mention of skater jumps directly out of the move without changing edge

Yes your example of Mirai is correct, it should count for the difficult entry bullet, but that is only an example of where the skater jumps directly out of the move without changing edge. This does NOT mean that jumps that come out of a move with changing edge/feet should not be considered for that bullet.

I don't think there is any more point in discussing the difficult entry bullets as you are basing your points on a wrong definition for the difficult entry. Also remember that having a difficult entry to a jump only hits 1 out of the 8 bullets, so it is not the sole way to garner + GOE.

In regards to Patrick Chan getting + GOEs...even when his jumps are not at their best, if you look at the other 7 bullets for + GOE other than the bullet I mentioned above, he consistently hits at least 3 to 4 of them including height, extension, flow, match to musical structure...etc. which is sufficient enough for him to gain those +s. If you want to compare him to other skaters, I believe they are indeed undermarked in GOE many times, though this fact doesn't mean Chan doesn't deserve his GOE, it just means the other skaters deserve more GOE.

Polymer Bob
12-09-2010, 04:32 PM
It's like judges were so impressed with Chan's skating skills (rightfully probably) that they just "forget" to penalize him when thing are not up to his level.
But judges could deduct some points in his PCS and still give him high marks. What they do is just ignoring a part of the rules in order to keep Chan's scores as high as when he stays on his feet. Not right.

My own belief has always been that falling has a psychological effect on judges, making other elements look uglier. So in addition to the -1 point, falls drop scores even further, but not because of rules. It's an effect that takes place in the judges minds that cannot be quantified nor controlled.

julieann
12-09-2010, 05:07 PM
A total myth. Sasha most times couldnt even beat a clean Kwan or a clean Slutskaya skating cleanly herself. She was never seen as having a two mistake on advantage on anyone other than maybe Fumie Suguri. Lets look at Sasha's career:

2002 Nationals- skates cleanly and loses decisively to Kwan

2002 Olympics- has 1 fall in her long program, is otherwise perfect, and finishes distant 4th behind Sarah Hughes, subpar Slutskaya, and Kwan with a fall herself.

2003 Cup of Russia- skates cleanly and loses to Volchkova.

2003 Grand Prix final- pops one jump and wins over Slutskaya who pops two and two foots another.

2003 Worlds- skates clean in qualifying round and is placed 3rd behind Kwan and Sokolova (who does a triple-triple). With one fall in short is placed 5th. With two falls in long and same triple lutz-triple toe as the jumps only Sokolova is placed 3rd in long behind Kwan and Sokolova, ahead of Suguri who singles and stumbles out of two different jumps.

2004 Nationals- has one fall and one two foot and loses decisively to Kwan who skates cleanly.

2004 Worlds- has one stumble and some other shaky landings in long program and drops to 2nd after placing 3rd in LP.

2005 Worlds- stays on her feet in both programs with only minor mistakes and loses decisively to Slutskaya who botches 2 elements in short program and has a triple discounted in long.

2005 Eric Bompard- has one fall and loses to teenaged Asada who botches her last spin.

2006 Olympics- has one fall, a second virtual fall, still lands 5 triples successfully, and loses gold by 8 points to 5 triple Arakawa, barely winning silver over Slutskaya with a disaester.

2006 Worlds- ok a mess but the field was weak, and a so so Suguri still won silver over her.


Sasha in no way is the Chan of the womens division to the judges. Maybe the judges like her but not excessively so. If anything she is unlucky, she never seemed to get the breaks of being able to win with anything other than perfect performance (and those were hard to come by for her in the long program admitedly).





Lambiel is also in no way a Patrick Chan in the judges eyes, and never was. The judges wouldnt even neccessarily put him over Plushenko, Takahashi, Joubert, or even Lysacek with mutual clean performances, let alone with many falls.

2004 Worlds- skated a clean long program with 2 quads, amazing spins, amazing artistry, and still was placed only 4th in the LP behind Plushenko, Joubert, and Lindemann.

2006 Europeans- made similar mistakes to Plushenko and ended up way behind.

2006 Olympics- wasnt getting the scores to come close to Plushenko even had he gone clean. And with one fall and one stumble but a successful quad-triple and a rotated 2nd quad (which he stumbled on) lost the LP portion to Buttle who fell on his only quad attempt, put his hand down on a triple axel, and doubled a triple loop, and to Lysacek who didnt attempt a quad.

2006 Worlds- skated an almost clean LP with one two footed jump and won the LP by 0.11 only over Joubert, and would have lost the overall gold without the Q round.

2008 GP final- OK his win over Takahashi here was controversial to some, yet in the SP he skated cleanly with a quad-triple and one shaky landing, and still lost to Takahashi who did a triple-triple combo.

2008 Worlds- made some mistakes and came 5th behind Takahashi who also had alot of mistakes.

I love how people use the word 'clean' as if they should have won just because there were no falls. There is plenty of other things skaters a judged on. The base value between one or another could be the differnece between one skater having enough points if they fall.