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Dragonlady
12-08-2010, 09:50 PM
There. Do I possess enough knowledge of the mechanics of the IJS to qualify as worthy of having an opinion on Patrick Chan?

No, not really.

Comments like:


I think he's overmarked badly in P/E all the time. Not because he falls, but because he is just not a good performer (yes, I have seen him live, more than once) who doesn't really make a connection with the audience, at least not any audiences outside of Canada.

What do marks for P/E have to do with audience connection? Where is it noted in the judging criteria? How is it reflected in the marks? Your comment displays gross ignorance in that regard. And if Chan doesn't connect with anyone outside of Canada, how does he manage to have fans at all in any other country in the world?


I could rant about his IN for a long time, but for starters, I'll just say that most of his supposed musicality is faked.

Again, what is the judging criteria for Interpretation? Does it require a deduction for faked musicality? There is no requirement that he be "on" his music. You'd know that IF you truly understood what was looked for.


He also gets too much credit on GOE many times, especially for his jumps. They very seldom have particularly good height or ice coverage, and 90% of the time his landings are extremely scratchy.

I must have been watching a different skater all these years because I've always seen a guy with big jumps, lots of ice-coverage and beautiful landings with run-out. Not always of course, but frequently, and certainly enough to justify the huge GoE he gets.

It was a nice attempt at faking knowledge of the scoring system. But not what used to be called a creditable attempt.

gkelly
12-08-2010, 10:14 PM
What do marks for P/E have to do with audience connection? Where is it noted in the judging criteria?

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf
"The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience."

It's only one of several bullet points in the rules for judging P/E, and an especially vague one at that, but it is in there.

senorita
12-08-2010, 10:14 PM
Chan has never "pooh-poohed" skaters who could land quads and has always stated that it was his goal to have a quad.
ermm..not really and I wont bother searching the archives, last two seasons there was a thread for every interview he made,all there.

But it doest matter what he says, rather what he skates.Anyway I think he deserved to be in the GPF and he didnt rob the place of any US skater, Abott didnt skate his best either, Rippon not for sure and Mroz I dont know, I dont remember even when he skated. Armin was impressive!


I must have been watching a different skater all these years because I've always seen a guy with big jumps, lots of ice-coverage and beautiful landings with run-out. Not always of course, but frequently, and certainly enough to justify the huge GoE he gets..
I certainly watched another skater at Worlds considering the jumps cause we agree all about his skills etc. His jumps -except for quad that I havent seen live but looks great- get small height, no ice distance and the landings are fine but just that. Same with spins, and he gets GOE in all of them like they have the wow factor.

Gil-Galad
12-08-2010, 11:17 PM
I certainly watched another skater at Worlds considering the jumps cause we agree all about his skills etc. His jumps -except for quad that I havent seen live but looks great- get small height, no ice distance and the landings are fine but just that.
Huh? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-OcizffuNs

His jumps seem to vary in quality, but when they are on - I think they are high and of top-quality. Look at the 3-3 in that video, the height on the Triple Toeloop! The Triple Axel also had great height in my opinion.

senorita
12-08-2010, 11:29 PM
Yes that was a good axel. And obviously as his 4toe is big as I said, so is his 3toe. As you said, they seem to vary a lot. Watch also his Lp. Or Ex. Also I was in my seat I didnt move with the camera. Great height has Brezina and Joubert from various competitions i ve seen them.

ali_dorate
12-08-2010, 11:46 PM
I remember Chan repeatedly said that he had intention to have quad in his program even after that severe injury.

His 3A is huge when it succeeds. I love his jump so much.

ltnskater
12-09-2010, 03:12 AM
Read what I wrote again.

I don't think Patrick Chan deserves positive GOE credit for just having transitions "near" as opposed to "into" his jumps, when other skaters do similarly hard transitions "near" jumps or even directly into jumps that are just as good or better in quality as Patrick's, but that do not get the same GOE. And I'd count the walley-into-lutz as being "into" the jump, for the record, that's just not the only kind of pre-jump transition he ever does.

It is the double standard that I have a problem with. Patrick is not the only beneficiary by any means, but this is a thread about him and how he is scored.

I think you should re-read what you wrote again to begin with.

I was responding specifically to this "He also does not do difficult entries and exits as much as his boosters seem to claim. They ARE difficult, even though they are near and not "go straight into his jump take-off or come out of the landing" from your own words.

From your first sentence, you say that he does NOT DO DIFFICULT entries and exits..., and you backed it up with saying just because the transitions are NEAR and don't go straight into his jump take-off or landing, they don't deserve positive GOE (therefore implying it did not add difficulty to the jump, otherwise, it would have deserved positive GOE).

It is interesting how in your above post just now, you have changed your original statement from "not difficult entries and exits" to "similarly hard transitions"... I think you should make up your mind before posting whether or not transitions NEAR jumps are difficult or not.

I did not once refer to the comparison with other skaters, this was your own assumption. Whether they deserve the same GOE or not is irrelevant when discussing whether a transition NEAR a jump is difficult or not.

Now, you did say that "not when many other skaters do the same kinds of transitions, jump just as well or better than Patrick, and don't see a similar boost in their GOE", and because I know you will pull that in disregarding what I said in the last paragraph, I will take note of this now, if they do the same kinds of transitions, then they deserve the positive GOE, this does not mean Patrick does not deserve the positive GOE.

To put that in simpler terms, because the transitions are difficult, if Chan gets positive GOE, so should the other skaters. This is DIFFERENT from "although Chan does not deserve the + GOEs that no one else gets" (in this case, you are assuming transitions "near" the jumps do not add difficulty, which is the point in your original post that I responded to).

One last note, if you now count the walley into the lutz being INTO the jump, then you have to be more specific, because the jump take-off refers to the edge the skater is on as they lift up into the air. (This is by definition, not opinion so it is an objective point)

Triple Butz
12-09-2010, 03:29 AM
entire post

Another example of Dragonlady blasting another poster without actually looking up the facts herself...color me surprised.

:lol:

PUNKPRINCESS
12-09-2010, 03:54 AM
Comments like:

I think he's overmarked badly in P/E all the time. Not because he falls, but because he is just not a good performer (yes, I have seen him live, more than once) who doesn't really make a connection with the audience, at least not any audiences outside of Canada.

What do marks for P/E have to do with audience connection? Where is it noted in the judging criteria? How is it reflected in the marks?


http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf
"The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience."

It's only one of several bullet points in the rules for judging P/E, and an especially vague one at that, but it is in there.
Oh, come on, even I knew that.


Another example of Dragonlady blasting another poster without actually looking up the facts herself...color me surprised.

:lol:


gross ignorance
:rollin:

:watch:

doubleflutz
12-09-2010, 04:15 AM
One last note, if you now count the walley into the lutz being INTO the jump, then you have to be more specific, because the jump take-off refers to the edge the skater is on as they lift up into the air. (This is by definition, not opinion so it is an objective point)

Oh for feck's sake, the degree of nitpicking you're engaging in is ridiculous. My point was perfectly clear, if you know the rules so well. Let me break it down:

- Transitional MITF between elements add to the "Transitions (TR)" component of PCS.
- One of the bullets for determining positive GOE on jumps is "difficult or unexpected entry".
- Not all transitions that come before jumps should count as "difficult entries".
- Any transitional move where the skater jumps directly out of the move without changing edge should count as a "difficult entry", and be rewarded with a positive GOE bullet as well as the TR score.
- Not every "difficult entry" has to come directly out of the preceding MITF. There's a pretty obvious difference between doing a layback ina bauer five seconds before a double axel, doing a double axel straight out of it, and what Mirai Nagasu does in her SP this season. The first one should one count under TR only, the second two should get the GOE bullet.
- Not every pre-jump transitional move Patrick Chan does is something that deserves credit as a "difficult entry".
- Sometimes it would appear that he gets credit for it anyway, compared to other skaters who do similar things before their jumps, and jump just as well as he does, if not better.
- Patrick Chan is capable of extraordinary quality in his jumps. He very often falls short of this standard, particularly in their height, ice coverage, and landing.
- Often the judges will give him high GOE on the jumps he does that are not his best
- The bullet for "difficult entry" is does not always explain the high GOE he gets, compared to skaters in the same competition who jump as well or better. Sometimes his pre-jump transitions don't deserve the bullet point. Sometimes they do, and it seems that he gets credit for it, while other skaters don't.
- Sometimes the judges are just flat-out on crack when it comes to his GOE, because they seem to judge him based on what he is capable of at his best -- which is sublime, if that makes you feel any better.
- Patrick Chan himself has publically admitted as much.

dundas
12-09-2010, 04:16 AM
Another example of Dragonlady blasting another poster without actually looking up the facts herself...color me surprised.

:lol:

Based on judgejudy27's recollection, Dragon blasted Evan after 2009 U.S. Nationals and said Evan should never be placed on World Team because his skating was inferior in every aspect . Unfortunately or forunately, Evan won the worlds in the same year.

Dragon suddently became a big Evan defender and showered him with every flattery word possible on his skating...

Go figure.:lol:

PUNKPRINCESS
12-09-2010, 04:18 AM
entire post 54
Completely agree.




In the skate Canada sp, he spent more time with his backside on the ice than any other skater in the entire event and received the highest marks for skating skills. :confused:


I would agree that Chan has great skating skills. But it seems that they might be just a bit absent in a program in which he falls that much. A fall on footwork would definitely indicate a lapse in blade/edge control. So that program should not garner his usual high scores.

CHARACTERISTICS OF SKATING SKILLS:

• Balance and rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement
• Flow and effortless glide
• Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns
• Power/energy and acceleration
• Mastery of multi directional skating
• Mastery of one foot skating

Very Good 8
Good 7
Approximately 75%...so, let's say someone (like, a real life troll) participating in a competition did a few perfect crossovers, steps and turns across the rink for about 20 seconds...then sat down, and spent the rest of the time literally on their butt. No jumps, no spins, no attempt to interpret the music, no choreo, nada. Is it still appropriate to give them a 10.0 in Skating Skills?

Well, my answer is no.

Having a list of criteria is one thing, but using them properly to judge a complete performance isn't clearly set out in the rules. That's why I liked and in many ways, still idealize the "dark ages of judging" in figure skating a.k.a. 6.0. Because back then I didn't have to look up protocols and see blatant lies on paper.

doubleflutz
12-09-2010, 04:58 AM
Having a list of criteria is one thing, but using them properly to judge a complete performance isn't clearly set out in the rules. That's why I liked and in many ways, still idealize the "dark ages of judging" in figure skating a.k.a. 6.0. Because back then I didn't have to look up protocols and see blatant lies on paper.

Oh, come on. The guy is overscored, especially in the SP at Skate Canada, but his basic skating was spectacular there. He deserved his 9s. His scores for SS are never, ever the problem.

Patrick Chan is not overscored on SS. Some other guys are criminally underscored, some are criminally overscored, but not him.

Dragonlady
12-09-2010, 05:31 AM
Some other guys are criminally underscored, some are criminally overscored, but not him.

Such as?

doubleflutz
12-09-2010, 05:45 AM
Such as?

Underscored: Tomas Verner, Takahiko Kozuka (improving this season), Nobunari Oda (ditto), pretty much any young Japanese singles skater in international competition who hasn't made a reputation for themselves and isn't named Daisuke
Overscored: Brian Joubert (or he was, we'll see what happens if he shows up to Euros/Worlds, I think he's in the process of being dumped by the judges), Samuel Contesti

Those are the big examples, but there are a lot. PCS is mostly scored on reputation, anyway, not broken down by each component based on what happens on the ice, the way it's supposed to be. There's not really much individuation between the different categories, even if there are clear areas of excellence and/or deficiency. Patrick's SS scores are one of the rare exceptions, and damn well deserved.