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nashvilledancer
12-08-2010, 03:52 AM
It just so happens that those new scoring rules also help anyone who rotates quads and triple axels, including Chan, at the same time that Chan's skating skills and transitions are the class of the field and are being appropriately rewarded.

This is a helpful post, although I wish my eyes could better see what translates to "skating skills" that separate Patrick SO FAR above the rest--and I'm a (granted, relatively low level) skater.

But transitions? Please! How does Patrick (or Daisuke) beat Jeremy on transitions? Choreography, too. And I think Interpretation could also be argued.

This is a request to be enlightened, not (only) a complaint.

Performance, I will give to Patrick or Daisuke over Jeremy.

(By the way, I find it a great and wonderful thing to be arguing over 3 complete skaters--artistic technicians--technical artists. I remember the lean years. Anybody remember Fadeev?)

igniculus
12-08-2010, 08:46 AM
:rofl: And you can prove this with 100% certainty how? :blah:

Weir made the final all 4 years in a row in the past olympic cycle, Lysacek made the final 3 times out of 4. So yes, with regular preparation they probably would have made the final this year too.

let`s talk
12-08-2010, 02:04 PM
Today Chan told sport-express.ru:

Journalist: What kind of skater do you want to be remembered by fans?

Chan: I would like people to know me not only as the skater who could jump quads but also as the skater who could show a beautiful skating. If I want to reach this, I have to work hard on technical elements, on jumps, especially on landings. My jumps are not stable yet but that is what I am going to work on.

J: I am not sure if you know, but nowdays a lot of people think that you are always overscored.

C: Yes, I know about it. That's why I am working hard on my jumps because I don't want people say such things about me in the future. I understand that some people think that if a skater made a bad mistake, he shouldn't win.

J: Is it important for you what press write about you?

C: Yes, of course. But I try not to follow all the details.
.................................................. .................................................. ..

J: You said "If I go to Sochi", are you not sure?

C: I don't know. It's not soon... I am planning my life not longer than a year ahead. And I want to study, I am interested in business studies. And don't forget that I am getting older. I hope my health will be fine. But you never know what can happen, right?

professordeb
12-08-2010, 02:30 PM
Today Chan told sport-express.ru:

Journalist: What kind of skater do you want to be remembered by fans?

Chan: I would like people to know me not only as the skater who could jump quads but also as the skater who could show a beautiful skating. If I want to reach this, I have to work hard on technical elements, on jumps, especially on landings. My jumps are not stable yet but that is what I am going to work on.

J: I am not sure if you know, but nowdays a lot of people think that you are always overscored.

C: Yes, I know about it. That's why I am working hard on my jumps because I don't want people say such things about me in the future. I understand that some people think that if a skater made a bad mistake, he shouldn't win.

J: Is it important for you what press write about you?

C: Yes, of course. But I try not to follow all the details.
.................................................. .................................................. ..

J: You said "If I go to Sochi", are you not sure?

C: I don't know. It's not soon... I am planning my life not longer than a year ahead. And I want to study, I am interested in business studies. And don't forget that I am getting older. I hope my health will be fine. But you never know what can happen, right?

Thanks, let's talk. Appreciate the post. It shows, at least to me, that he is quite aware of his shortcomings regarding skating and that he is working on improving himself in those areas.

I chuckled at the "I'm getting older. I hope my health will be fine" because I still think of him as such a youngster.

museksk8r
12-08-2010, 02:36 PM
Weir made the final all 4 years in a row in the past olympic cycle, Lysacek made the final 3 times out of 4. So yes, with regular preparation they probably would have made the final this year too.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but the OP's use of the word "easily" makes it sound like Lysacek and Weir are so far above everyone else, that it would be a cake walk for them to make the final over other skaters around the world. Who knows what Evan or Johnny would have had to deal with this season if they continued to compete as this is a rebuilding year for everyone. Lysacek as reigning Olympic champ could struggle due to fatigue from overtravel and so many shows; the guy has been everywhere and for sure hasn't had the training time that he used to have to be ready for competitions. He's been falling pretty often in his show programs with no pressure, so when the pressure is on, who knows what his performance level would be? Yes, he's a strong competitor, but I'm sure he's exhausted too from his schedule. Weir, as well, hasn't had the training time that he was used to in preparation for last season and he has been everywhere with a busy schedule as well. There are no guarantees that they would be ready to compete this season and "easily" make the GPF, which is the point I was trying to make. And actually, Weir and Lysacek both did not compete in the 2006-2007 GPF; they both withdraw for injury reasons - Evan didn't skate at all and Johnny scratched after the SP where he finished last (5th). Notice, this was the post-Torino Olympics GPF, again, where all the skaters were rebuilding after an exhausting Olympic season, and both Evan and Johnny did not complete the GPF competition due to injuries.

igniculus
12-08-2010, 05:36 PM
Yes, I'm aware of that, but the OP's use of the word "easily" makes it sound like Lysacek and Weir are so far above everyone else, that it would be a cake walk for them to make the final over other skaters around the world. Who knows what Evan or Johnny would have had to deal with this season if they continued to compete as this is a rebuilding year for everyone. Lysacek as reigning Olympic champ could struggle due to fatigue from overtravel and so many shows; the guy has been everywhere and for sure hasn't had the training time that he used to have to be ready for competitions. He's been falling pretty often in his show programs with no pressure, so when the pressure is on, who knows what his performance level would be? Yes, he's a strong competitor, but I'm sure he's exhausted too from his schedule. Weir, as well, hasn't had the training time that he was used to in preparation for last season and he has been everywhere with a busy schedule as well. There are no guarantees that they would be ready to compete this season and "easily" make the GPF, which is the point I was trying to make. And actually, Weir and Lysacek both did not compete in the 2006-2007 GPF; they both withdraw for injury reasons - Evan didn't skate at all and Johnny scratched after the SP where he finished last (5th). Notice, this was the post-Torino Olympics GPF, again, where all the skaters were rebuilding after an exhausting Olympic season, and both Evan and Johnny did not complete the GPF competition due to injuries.

All quite true, but the OP's question didn't deal with "competing in the final" but making it. And well, they did, they just pulled out due to injuries.

euterpe
12-08-2010, 06:31 PM
Sometimes it's hard to believe what Chan says.

Last year, he was pooh-poohing skaters who could land quads and lauded himself for his transitions. Then he did a 180 degree turnabout and decided he needed a quad. Now he thinks he is viewed as a skater "who can jump quads".

The fact is he has had only a 50% success rate with his quad. He lands it in the SP or the FS, but not both. Meanwhile, the 3A, with which he had a 66-70% success rate last season, has gotten more elusive: he's now landing only one of three attempts per competition. He's had wonky landings with other jumps as well.

It almost seems as if training the quad has affected his consistency with his triple jumps, particularly the 3A.

overedge
12-08-2010, 06:41 PM
I think he's overmarked badly in P/E all the time. Not because he falls, but because he is just not a good performer (yes, I have seen him live, more than once) who doesn't really make a connection with the audience, at least not any audiences outside of Canada.

You just lost any credibility you might have had with this statement. Are you seriously suggesting that Canadian audiences are so slavishy devoted to any Canadian skater that they automatically connect with them? Puhleeze. There are homers in every skating crowd, but I would certainly not characterize Canadian homers as being any more intense or clueless than homers from other countries.

pinky166
12-08-2010, 06:45 PM
It almost seems as if training the quad has affected his consistency with his triple jumps, particularly the 3A.

Well that is true of Joubert and was of Verner before this season as well.

sk9tingfan
12-08-2010, 06:54 PM
It almost seems as if training the quad has affected his consistency with his triple jumps, particularly the 3A.

I think that this is a problem with almost everyone who starts slavishly practicing the quad. There are others who started to lose/significantly affect their 3A's prior to the Olympics including but not limited to Johnny Weir, Takahashi, Oda and to some degree, Evan Lysacek. If I had the time, I would take study the protocols in terms of correlating performance on the 3A for those skaters who either achieved or attempted a quad within their program. I believe that this may be one of the problems with Kevin Reynolds.

I also think that it has to do with the muscle groups that are necessary to do either jumps and to overtrain the quad antagonizes the muscle memory associated with doing 3A's.

caseyedwards
12-08-2010, 07:18 PM
If I am not mistaken Reynolds was doing quads before he was doing 3A's because axels were just difficult for him regardless of what other jumps he was doing. Even before Chan was doing quads in competition his triple jumps were not always great. I think he has a tendency to lean back while landing or his free leg is low to the ice.

overedge
12-08-2010, 07:57 PM
If I am not mistaken Reynolds was doing quads before he was doing 3A's because axels were just difficult for him regardless of what other jumps he was doing.

It's not that he has an inherent problem with axels, it's the crappy way that Joanne MacLeod makes her students do them. I don't think you can compare his axel "problem" with Chan's axel "problem".

Dragonlady
12-08-2010, 08:16 PM
Last year, he was pooh-poohing skaters who could land quads and lauded himself for his transitions. Then he did a 180 degree turnabout and decided he needed a quad. Now he thinks he is viewed as a skater "who can jump quads".

Chan has never "pooh-poohed" skaters who could land quads and has always stated that it was his goal to have a quad. When he moved up to seniors, he had a set time line for the addition of elements. First season was to land the 3A which he did at Jr. Worlds that season. Second year was to get to more consistent with the 3A. 2008/09 was to land two 3A's in the LP which he did, more than once. Last year it was the quad, but that fell apart when he tore his calf muscle.

So he's now a year behind in his schedule, but the quad was always on the agenda.

ltnskater
12-08-2010, 09:27 PM
It was certainly 90% of his jumps in the FS at Skate Canada.

He also does not do difficult entries and exits as much as his boosters seem to claim. Very seldom do his transitions actually go straight into his jump take-off or come out of the landing. Just having some transitions near his jumps should not count for positive GOE, not when many other skaters do the same kinds of transitions, jump just as well or better than Patrick, and don't see a similar boost in their GOE.

Now you seem to not know skating all that well, and is just giving an opinion on what you think about transitions being NEAR jumps not being difficult...

let me enlighten you, just because movements and transitions don't go right into the edge/take-off going into the jump and right out of the landing edge does not mean it is not difficult, it is still extremely very difficult with all sorts of reasons, one including the shift in balance.

Let me give you an example... using Patrick Chan since this is a topic about him. When he goes into his lutz (one of his previous programs, or his current ones I don't remember), he does a walley right into a back drag, then into the triple lutz. Although from his back drag he crosses his foot over to go into the lutz, yes the back drag was not STRAIGHT into the jump take-off edge, there was that cross of the left over right foot in between, but it certainly counts as a transition, and makes it MUCH more difficult.

Unless you are a skater, you really don't know how difficult many of the moves are, many things SEEM easy and simple, they are actually VERY difficult.

Likewise, if you are a skater, then you should know how difficult many of these moves before and after jumps are even though they don't occur on the same step/edge as the takeoff and landing (and even within the program too), and if you still don't believe me, try it the next time you skate and see if your jumps seem just as easy as before without those types of movements/transitions.

doubleflutz
12-08-2010, 09:44 PM
Now you seem to not know skating all that well, and is just giving an opinion on what you think about transitions being NEAR jumps not being difficult...

let me enlighten you, just because movements and transitions don't go right into the edge/take-off going into the jump and right out of the landing edge does not mean it is not difficult, it is still extremely very difficult with all sorts of reasons, one including the shift in balance.

Read what I wrote again.

I don't think Patrick Chan deserves positive GOE credit for just having transitions "near" as opposed to "into" his jumps, when other skaters do similarly hard transitions "near" jumps or even directly into jumps that are just as good or better in quality as Patrick's, but that do not get the same GOE. And I'd count the walley-into-lutz as being "into" the jump, for the record, that's just not the only kind of pre-jump transition he ever does.

It is the double standard that I have a problem with. Patrick is not the only beneficiary by any means, but this is a thread about him and how he is scored.