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Rock2
12-07-2010, 04:04 PM
Chan's blatant overmarking was of course a disgrace to the sport

Can you please enhance my learning of the sport by telling me precisely what he got credit for that he didn't do? Or this this purely an uninformed opinion based on who you like and don't like?

Please answer with reference to CoP e.g. Patrick did X. CoP says that is worth Y points but he got Y+3 points so he was overscored. I'd like to understand the exact mistakes the judges made.

Thanks

Triple Butz
12-07-2010, 07:43 PM
Can you please enhance my learning of the sport by telling me precisely what he got credit for that he didn't do? Or this this purely an uninformed opinion based on who you like and don't like?

Please answer with reference to CoP e.g. Patrick did X. CoP says that is worth Y points but he got Y+3 points so he was overscored. I'd like to understand the exact mistakes the judges made.

Thanks

I'll bite.

In the skate Canada sp, he spent more time with his backside on the ice than any other skater in the entire event and received the highest marks for skating skills. :confused:

Throughout the program, he ignores the meter (5/4) and consistently misses every strong beat. This is most evident in his final step sequence, during which he had a terrible fall that took several seconds to recover from. Yet, many of the judges took only a small deduction of -1.

His ending pose, which he held for a millisecond before collapsing his posture and looking disappointed shows a lack of conviction and attention to detail. He essentially gave up on the program after his many blunders. Still, the judges gave him the highest marks for P/E, C/C, and Interpretation.

In the lp, his first 3a was under-rotated, but the caller gave him credit.

briancoogaert
12-07-2010, 07:48 PM
Who's Brian Mroz?? :lol:
Brandon's brother ? :confused: ;)

PDilemma
12-07-2010, 07:53 PM
I would agree that Chan has great skating skills. But it seems that they might be just a bit absent in a program in which he falls that much. A fall on footwork would definitely indicate a lapse in blade/edge control. So that program should not garner his usual high scores.

But I think that is less the problem than the general problem with PCS. Judges are overextended in this system. While watching a program they are separately evaluating each and every element. The focus that requires really gives them little time to think about or absorb what is going on in terms of choreography, the whole effect of a program, interpretation and the tiny little nuances like hitting the strong beats in the music. They end up falling back on reputation and what they may have seen in practice to determine those scores. Add to that the ridiculous rules about PCS scores all being within range of each other---as if a skater with brilliant skating skills could not possibly have a program with crap choreography or zero interpretation--I'm not sure we can even blame the judges. It is the system that is not working.

professordeb
12-07-2010, 08:07 PM
This blog post is less about Chan and other skaters than it is about the writer's longstanding refusal to accept (understand?) CoP, and their futile attempt to rally support for going back to the dark ages of judging.

Indeed. :40beers: for you!

kwanfan1818
12-07-2010, 08:13 PM
I'll bite.

In the skate Canada sp, he spent more time with his backside on the ice than any other skater in the entire event and received the highest marks for skating skills. :confused:


I would agree that Chan has great skating skills. But it seems that they might be just a bit absent in a program in which he falls that much. A fall on footwork would definitely indicate a lapse in blade/edge control. So that program should not garner his usual high scores.


CHARACTERISTICS OF SKATING SKILLS:

• Balance and rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement
• Flow and effortless glide
• Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns
• Power/energy and acceleration
• Mastery of multi directional skating
• Mastery of one foot skating

Very Good 8
Good 7
Approximately 75%

gkelly
12-07-2010, 08:37 PM
I would agree that Chan has great skating skills. But it seems that they might be just a bit absent in a program in which he falls that much. A fall on footwork would definitely indicate a lapse in blade/edge control. So that program should not garner his usual high scores.

Well, if we're talking about the short program at Skate Canada...

I was very impressed by the beginning of the step sequence and thinking it would deserve +2, wondering if it would even get up to +3. Then he got a little sloppy and a second later he fell, and the last few steps of the sequence after he got up were even sloppier than the one or two steps before the fall. So in terms of GOE for that step sequence, I thought it needed to go to -3, although if he'd gotten up and immediately gotten back to the quality level of the beginning then -2 or even -1 could have been possible.

How does that affect the Skating Skills mark? I was thinking it should be lower than what it would have been if he hadn't fallen on the steps.

But I still thought it should be higher than anyone else's in the competition, including Oda.

I.e., I think he deserves high 8s or low 9s for SS when he skates his best. That day wasn't his best so high 7s or low 8s seemed more appropriate.

Some of the judges agreed with me; some were a little on the high side in my opinion.

I thought the very high level of skating skills were present for more than 2:30 out of a 2:50 program.

Which beats someone else having high-but-not-very-high skating skills for the whole program.

Similarly on the Transitions.

Other components are more subjective. But still, for a skater who normally deserves high marks and doesn't skate his best, that would usually mean that the marks should be lower than he would deserve at his best. Not necessarily lower than the next best skater in the competition.

The scoring should be more about rewarding what each skater does well than about focusing on the few seconds that don't go so well.

Rock2
12-07-2010, 09:08 PM
Oh my dog.
Real, objective discussions about skating and scoring in the context of the ISU rulebook.
I'm all agog.

I'd type more but a. I've said enough for now and b. I'm busy making sandwich boards with the same slogan as my new signature.

Iceman
12-07-2010, 09:33 PM
PDilemma, I agree that judges are overextended. There is no way they can really judge well everything they are asked to judge. They do good just to judge the jumping and spinning. There needs to be two panels of judges, one to judge the tes and the other the pcs. The latter group imo should even have more judges on its panel than the tes judges. I am not opposed to there being an automatic deduction of x points from the pcs score when there are more than y number of falls in a program.Could someone point me to the guidelines given judges for judging such things as choreography, interpretation?

gkelly
12-07-2010, 09:39 PM
Could someone point me to the guidelines given judges for judging such things as choreography, interpretation?

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

You might want to bookmark this page:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-152055-169271-nav-list,00.html

doubleflutz
12-07-2010, 10:15 PM
Can you please enhance my learning of the sport by telling me precisely what he got credit for that he didn't do? Or this this purely an uninformed opinion based on who you like and don't like?

Please answer with reference to CoP e.g. Patrick did X. CoP says that is worth Y points but he got Y+3 points so he was overscored. I'd like to understand the exact mistakes the judges made.

Thanks

I think he's overmarked badly in P/E all the time. Not because he falls, but because he is just not a good performer (yes, I have seen him live, more than once) who doesn't really make a connection with the audience, at least not any audiences outside of Canada. His feet are sublime, but the rest of his body isn't so much, which detracts from the E part. There's none of the attention to detail in how he carries himself and uses the rest of his body that you see in the really good performers, Daisuke, Jeremy, Stephane. None of his programs show a particular or distinct style that comes from the music, except maybe Take Five. Not much variety or contrast, either.

I could rant about his IN for a long time, but for starters, I'll just say that most of his supposed musicality is faked. If he had choreo that was less frenetic and music that was less complex, it would be a lot more noticeable how often he is off the music completely and not really paying attention to it. He is honestly close to as bad as Miki Ando in this regard, Lori Nichol is just much better at creating choreography that disguises it, through all the clutter. Chan's skating is exactly the same no matter what he is skating to, and he doesn't really try to interpret the music. Take Five is a huge improvement over the programs of the past, but it's still got a long way to go, and it's over-marked in this area. He cannot really convey slowness or softness in the music at all, or even a change in the music, without stopping to pose. Just look at how often he winds up behind his music, it's more the rule than the exception. He will often just skate right through it. It is there as a background to his big footwork sequence with bonus jumps and spins, and if sometimes the movements line up with moments in the music, it's a bonus. But it's different movements and moments with every single performance. Trick choreography, apart from a couple of very obvious dramatic cues. But everyone can do that sort of thing, even Kevin Van Der Perren knows how to throw his arms up occasionally at a dramatic moment. That's not interpreting to the music or even really skating to it. A skater needs more than that to deserve high IN, and Patrick Chan does not do much more than that.

He also gets too much credit on GOE many times, especially for his jumps. They very seldom have particularly good height or ice coverage, and 90% of the time his landings are extremely scratchy. His air positions are often very off, too, although they can be lovely. Once in a blue moon, he will land something smoothly that truly deserves +2 and it is a beautiful moment, but he gets credit more often for what he is capable of doing, not what he actually does on the ice at that competition. He has admitted as much himself. His spins are also sometimes marked way higher than what he performs, too. The SP at Skate Canada this year is a fine example: Patrick Chan is not the second coming of Stephane Lambiel. Even the judges can see that, which is why he's not marked with +2s and +3s on occasions when they don't desperately need every point they can to hold him up, even though at other competitions he has performed the same spins just as well or even better.

Yes, he should score extremely high on TR and SS, and usually on Choreography as well, although not as high as the first two. He's only a little bit overmarked there, as opposed to incredibly overmarked on P/E and IN. In particular, it would be nice if he ever had programs that showed Phrasing and Form, and I don't think he should get credit for Unity when there's really nothing seperating any of his programs into different parts to begin with. But then, if he had a program with really distinct sections that related to very different parts of the music, it would be noticeable how bad at IN he really is, so I doubt it will ever happen.

There. Do I possess enough knowledge of the mechanics of the IJS to qualify as worthy of having an opinion on Patrick Chan?

kwanfan1818
12-07-2010, 10:28 PM
He also gets too much credit on GOE many times, especially for his jumps. They very seldom have particularly good height or ice coverage, and 90% of the time his landings are extremely scratchy. His air positions are often very off, too, although they can be lovely. Once in a blue moon, he will land something smoothly that truly deserves +2 and it is a beautiful moment,
I disagree with your descriptions, particularly about ice coverage, and your 90% stat, but even were your descriptions accurate, he can gain +1 for each difficult entrance and exit from a jump element: usually at least +1 and up to +2 additional GOE to counter his perceived flaws.


His spins are also sometimes marked way higher than what he performs, too.
On which criteria: speed, position, centering?

To paraphrase Cary Grant, under CoP even Lambiel isn't Lambiel. Even under 6.0, his final two spins were usually amazing, but the other two weren't that great by comparison. And, yes, I've seen Lambiel live many times since 2004.

senorita
12-07-2010, 10:56 PM
Speaking of the men's sp in Vancouver, does anyone else think Takahashi should have won the short with a huge lead in PCS?

yeap me too. Having watched Olys again with clear mind, his sp was spectacular and one of the few I want to see again and he should have been marked accordingly, to afford one fall in lp overall, and the calls and downgrades he got in Lp were too harsh.

doubleflutz
12-07-2010, 11:00 PM
I disagree with your descriptions, particularly about ice coverage, and your 90% stat, but even were your descriptions accurate, he can gain +1 for each difficult entrance and exit from a jump element: usually at least +1 and up to +2 additional GOE to counter his perceived flaws.

It was certainly 90% of his jumps in the FS at Skate Canada.

He also does not do difficult entries and exits as much as his boosters seem to claim. Very seldom do his transitions actually go straight into his jump take-off or come out of the landing. Just having some transitions near his jumps should not count for positive GOE, not when many other skaters do the same kinds of transitions, jump just as well or better than Patrick, and don't see a similar boost in their GOE.


On which criteria: speed, position, centering?

Speed and centering, mostly. He's never bad, but he's rarely much better than "good" at either of those. His positions are always satisfactory at a bare minimum, are usually good, sometimes very good. I like his camels especially, and I like how many of them he has this season. Overall, his spins can be good but they're never truly excellent and exceptional. I do think he and Lori Nichol deserve credit for mostly sticking to classic or simple positions that look attractive and are well within his range, but he deserves credit under PCS, not the GOE of the spins himself.

Triple Butz
12-08-2010, 02:56 AM
I think he's overmarked badly in P/E all the time. Not because he falls, but because he is just not a good performer (yes, I have seen him live, more than once) who doesn't really make a connection with the audience, at least not any audiences outside of Canada. His feet are sublime, but the rest of his body isn't so much, which detracts from the E part. There's none of the attention to detail in how he carries himself and uses the rest of his body that you see in the really good performers, Daisuke, Jeremy, Stephane. + rest of post

:respec: